♪♪
-Hello, and welcome to Book Lust.
I'm Nancy Pearl.
My guest today is author Kevin O'Brien,
whose recent novel is "The Enemy at Home".
Kevin, thank you so much.
-Nancy, it's so great to be here.
Thank you for having me.
-Well, it's been a long time since last
we talked on this TV show,
and we're thinking it's about 2010, 2011.
But, you just told me, if people go to your website...
-kevinobrienbooks.com.
-kevinobrienbooks.com,
they can look at us about 14 years younger,
which no matter what we said, that would be worth a look.
-You haven't changed. In fact, you look better.
-Oh, aw, shucks. No.
Well, you definitely have not changed,
but we're doing this on Zoom,
so I get a little view of is this your writing room?
-This is my writing nook,
and, you know, it's kind of a long story,
but my first professor in --
my first writing teacher in college had me over to her house
when she had a party.
She was so great.
Her name was Ann Powers, and she was a writer also.
And she was the first teacher
that ever told me about the business of writing,
you know, getting The Writer's Market book
and trying to find an agent and everything else.
And she kind of let us go off on our own for writing.
And she invited just a few of us to a party
that she had with agents and authors and stuff.
I mean, how great, at her house.
And she had her framed book covers all in one, like, room.
And so I was like,
If I ever get published, that's what I'm going to do.
So this is, right here.
I don't know if you can't see it,
but you can see one of them.
-Yeah.
-But I've got my framed book covers.
I call this, like, my monument to my own ego.
But it's my little writer's nook,
and there's a window with a view of the Space Needle.
And it's a converted Murphy bed closet
and it's a perfect little nook off my living room.
So --
-And I can see, between us on my Zoom screen,
is a little sliver of your living room.
-Right, right here, yeah.
-Are those pussy willows?
-They are lit up pussy willows.
They're illumination pussy willows?
I guess you could --
I think there's a place called Illumination
that somebody bought those for me.
-I love them. -Aren't they fun? Yeah.
-And one more question before we get to your book,
which I'm dying to talk about, dying to talk about,
because it's a thriller.
Are those your CDs behind you? -Yeah, those are, like, CDs.
And then you can see there's some movies up there
and then books and more books up here, more books here,
and a ton of books in the living room.
And the living room is all for my friends, the authors.
So, you know, all my, my own books are over there.
-So, you have a long career of writing mystery/thrillers.
As much as I could remember,
and, you know, at my advanced age,
you know, maybe memory is, you know, like, the first to go.
-Welcome, I can understand, I can relate.
-The book, "The Enemy at Home", your brand new book,
is your first historical, you're -- oh good, I'm glad.
-You got it right. You got it.
-So give us -- when you talk to your agent about this book,
before, you know,
while you were working on it and, you know,
thinking about it maybe,
at what stage did you talk to your agent about it?
Like, when did you, and how did you, describe this book?
-Well, I actually had the idea about 10 years,
probably around the time we talked last.
And I just thought,
I'd love to write something set during World War II
on the home front
where there's a serial killer out there murdering
Rosie the Riveters.
And I just kind of, that idea stuck with me.
And I asked my --
I usually deal directly with my editor first and say, you know,
we'll bounce ideas off each other.
And I threw this at him and he was like,
You're very successful at contemporary.
And he said,
you know, this is going to throw a curveball at your readership
and they might not be ready for anything historical.
So he said, Yeah,
I think you should just keep doing contemporary thrillers.
And so I kept doing contemporary thrillers,
and in one of them, called "Unspeakable",
I had a lot of flashbacks to the Seattle World's Fair,
because there was a serial killing going on
during the Seattle World's Fair.
And I loved doing the research.
I just, you know, it was fascinating.
And to work in all this thriller element
into the real history of it was just so great.
So I got, like,
this taste of what it would be like to write a thriller.
And so come the pandemic, and come retirement age,
I just -- I was sort of reassessing,
reevaluating my career.
And I told my agent, I said, You know, I want to shake it up.
I want to do something different.
And she was like, No, no, I think you should --
I was getting the same, nah, nah.
And I talked to, on the sly to my editor,
and I said, You know,
I want to go back to that World War II idea,
because I said, you know,
the whole motivation behind this guy could be,
I'd seen a miniseries on Ted Bundy,
and I'd read Ann Rule's book, too,
God rest her soul, I love her.
And, you know,
they were talking about part of the motivation
that he had was the women's liberation movement,
that he was, like, sort of threatened by that.
And I thought,
This is the same thing for the serial killer
for the Rosie the Riveters.
These are women in power, women who are heroes for the war,
and he would be very resentful of that.
And I pitched that at my editor and he was like,
You know, World War II is hot, too, right now.
He said, You know, I think you should go for it.
And so I had to -- I ended up having to actually fire my agent
because she just wanted to kind of keep doing
the same thing over and over.
And I said,
You know, guess we're going to have to go our separate ways
because I'm -- I really want to do this book.
And so, and I'm actually,
I'm kind of glad I did because I really enjoyed this book.
I really loved doing it.
It was that I had insisted that it be in trade paperback
rather than just paperback because --
so I had some stipulations
before I decided to start firing people.
Like, before I started to really get,
really get tough, I kind of thought,
Well, what do I want out of this book?
I want to have it reviewed.
I want to have it in trade paper,
because mass market is really kind of a dying genre.
So anyway, so I know that's the longest-winded answer.
-No, no, I'm glad. I loved it.
But I can't, I mean,
the thought of firing your agent and knowing you,
I mean, you know, I don't know you well,
but I certainly know you a little bit at least.
That must have been so hard for you.
-It was tough.
It was really tough because I, you know, my career,
I had hit a peak
and I think I was noticing that sales were kind of dwindling.
And I kind of -- part of me blinded on the fact
that I was churning out the same type of book
all the time and never shaking it up
and doing something different.
And the fact that mass market is a real -- it was just,
it had peaked already, too.
So I wanted to kind of shake it up.
And I don't think if I was,
wasn't retirement age and getting my railroad pension,
I would have done it.
But I thought, You know, I have nothing to lose from this.
And, you know, definitely, you know, I guess I do,
but I'm not going to go to the poorhouse
because of it, you know.
-Right. Wait, what railroad pension?
-I worked for the railroads from 1980, no, 1980 to 19,
to 2000, no, to 1997. -What?
-Oh, yeah, I thought you knew that.
I was working for the railroads and writing at night.
And I would do all my writing in Best Westerns and stuff
because I was always traveling.
And this was before the days of the computer.
And so it was like,
I can either go to the Red Lion Bar
or watch a Brady Bunch rerun, or I can do my writing.
And actually, It was the perfect job for somebody
who wants to do something else.
Because I was traveling all over the Pacific Northwest,
so I got to see so much of this area of the country,
and got to meet a lot of interesting people.
And it was just a perfect training ground.
I couldn't have asked for a better,
you know, job that would keep me, like, in my own.
Occasionally I had to work with somebody,
which was a pain in the neck,
because I was suddenly on their schedule
and they'd want to go out,
you know, to dinner and then they'd want to go out afterwards
to some bar or something.
I'd be like, Oh, God help me.
I've just got a chapter to write.
-Oh, I was going to ask you what your job was.
-I was a transportation inspector
and I would go from one freight house to another
and look at their records
and to see if they were correctly reported
to the Association of American Railroads.
I'd go out in the freight yards
and check the cars to make sure they were secured properly,
you know, the doors weren't open on a loaded car.
And then it got really technical.
Like, in 1992, I was doing hazardous material inspections.
So I was, you know, I was dealing with a lot
of dangerous stuff, and I was like,
I've got to get out of this job so badly, you know?
So I had that job, like I say, from '80 to '97,
and I published two books while I was -- I had the job when.
I published my first one,
I told Terry Brooks I met him the first time I got published
and I said, you know Well, I'm going to quit my job soon.
And he's like, Kevin, don't do that
until you know you have enough to live on
for a couple of years.
So, when I published my book,
"Only Son",
there was a movie deal connected to it
and a Reader's Digest deal connected with it.
And that was in 1996.
And I really seriously thought about leaving.
And then the railroads offered me a buyout.
I was like, Okay, timing is perfect.
So I had -- that's when I retired from the railroads.
But I still get a check now.
-And you can sing, "I've been working on the railroad".
-All the live long day.
-And a Best Western at night.
-So if you look at some of my books,
there's like -- every couple of books,
there's a dead body in the railroad yards
or something like that. -Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's so, oh, I love that story.
I, yeah.
So do you think that -- do you think that --
let me start a different way.
The framed pictures,
the framed covers that you have on the wall,
and you're sitting there typing, you know,
using your computer, writing your books,
are those daunting or are they encouraging?
-I think they're more encouraging.
You know, you do sometimes, I think,
I was talking, I wasn't talking,
I was watching Lauri Frankel talking to Claire Deter
when Lori's new book, "Family, Family" came out.
And she was just talking about, like, yeah,
each time is it like you're a fledgling writer, you know?
It's like each time, you're like,
How did I do that?
And you kind of fly by the seat of your pants each time
you write a book.
But I I've sort of after 25 books, I'm starting to be like,
Oh, yeah, I see I'm falling into that same old pattern.
You know, it's taken me a while to get started,
but once I get started, you know, I'll -- It'll pick up.
And, but it is -- you do do --
you kind of do go through the sort of like,
How did I do this last time? Well, I know how I did it.
And everybody has their own method and technique, you know?
-Let's talk about the new book, "The Enemy at Home".
-Yes.
-I mean, you know, how much do you outline?
Or what do you know?
What did you,
you know, you knew right from the get-go
that there was going to be a serial killer
and you had in your mind his motive.
But that would be a very short book
if that's two sentences I think you could probably do that.
So then what happened next?
How did you proceed from there?
-Well, your question, I do outline all the time.
I learned that, like, the hard way.
I had two mainstream books.
My first two books were sort of mainstream.
They weren't thrillers.
And when I started writing my first thriller,
I just kind of flew by the seat of my pants
and wrote it and realized that it's just not working.
I had no idea how it was going to end or anything else.
And so I had to stop and just backtrack
and write it all over again,
threw out so much of it and added so much.
And so I realized it's much easier to write
with a guideline, so write an outline.
Anyway, going back to your specific question,
I started to do the research to see if I could,
where should I set this?
You know, where would it be a great setting?
And I thought, Well, Seattle. And then doing the research,
I realized that Seattle was, like,
such a boomtown during World War II.
It was, you know, the population just exploded
and all sorts of people, you know, migrated here.
And so it was -- you know,
and all the industries that were in Seattle,
the Boeing and the shipyards
and so many naval bases and army bases.
So, it was really a war town.
And so I read up on the blackouts and -- that were here.
And I read Jamie Ford's book,
"The Hotel on the Corner of Bitter and Sweet",
which was so influential.
In fact, I ran into him while I was, like, doing the outline.
And I said,
"I'm so ripping off your book because I said,
I have a scene I think I'm going to do in Pioneer Square
during World War II.
And you just kind of really set it up for me."
And he was like, Oh, go ahead, go for it.
You know, I don't own Pioneer Square during World War II.
So I was, like, yeah.
So I was -- I really, really enjoyed doing the research.
And one of the one of the things that I went through
because of the retirement
and the pandemic was I'm going to take a year off for a change
and actually do research and just take notes.
And because when I first --
when I published my first thriller
and I hit the USA Today Bestseller list,
I got this congratulations from John Saul.
And he said,
You're going to have to write a book a year every year
for the rest of your life if you want to stay in this business.
And so I was like, Okay.
And I did churn out about 23 books for 23 years.
And this one I just said, you know,
I'm going to take my time with this
and really have fun with the research.
And so a lot went into the research.
And my outlines are kind of,
they're not really outlines with bullet points.
They are, it's like a mini novel.
And I submit that to my agent, not to my agent, to my editor.
And I make it as entertaining as possible.
And it's like he's reading a mini version of the book.
And it was 100, this one was 140 pages.
And he got it and he was like, This works.
Yeah, this is, and he had a couple of problems with it
and then I started writing, I got my check,
that's the important thing,
I got the advance money, and I started writing.
And one of the benefits to that is that there are no surprises
when he gets the book.
He's like, he pretty much knows where it's,
where it was going and, you know,
just a few minor changes was, were all he asked for.
So, you know,
I know some editors really get tough on their writers
and are like, Yeah, I want you to change the main character.
I want it to be a woman instead of a man.
You know, I hear these nightmare stories
and I'm like, It takes -- usually takes about half a day
to make the changes that he wants.
So.
-Do you think that -- did you grow up in Seattle?
-No, I grew up in the Midwest.
I grew up in Chicago, the Chicago area.
-I'm from Detroit.
-Oh my God, so a Midwesterner. -Totally.
-Right now I'm reading "The Great Believers".
Did you read that?
And it's so interesting because my sister lives
on the same block that the protagonist lives on.
And so I'm like, I know all this area.
I'm like, My God, this is amazing.
So. -That's a wonderful book, too.
-Oh, it's so good.
-There's just one chapter in that book.
I don't usually cry about a book, over a book,
but there's one part and one chapter in that book
where I just wept.
-Oh, I bet you it's coming up.
I bet you it's coming up,
because I'm -- this guy's living.
He -- you can just tell he's, like,
on the edge, like, living on the edge.
And he's, you know, constantly worried that something,
that he could be sick.
And I'm like, He's gone, he's not --
I'm not sure if he's going to make it or not.
-It's -- so we should,
it's "The Great Believers" by Rebecca McKay.
So our viewers can not only check your books out,
but check that one out.
-Yes. -And so we'll know,
you know, they'll get a feel for the kind of book that you like.
-Yes.
But they have to read my book first
because I'd rather have them read mine first, in case --
because Rebecca's is really, really well done.
It's like, it's one of those books you can -- he'll make a,
she'll have him make a grocery list or something
and you're fascinated.
You know what I mean?
I wish I had that ability to get inside a character's
head so much
that the reader cares just about something trivial, you know?
-But she's less interested in plot, perhaps, than you are.
-I keep telling myself
that whenever I read a book with great characters or something,
I'm like, Well, you know, I'm okay at plot.
I'm good at plot.
-So your next book is going to be another historical?
-Yes.
I wanted to do something set
around the Kennedy assassination time.
And I just wanted to shake it up.
And my editor was like, I really want another World War II book.
So he had a sort of an interesting idea about like,
like the show The Americans,
where there could be like a Nazi family living somewhere,
like, a husband and wife, and maybe a kid.
And a neighbor would start to suspect
that something's off here,
that this family's a little too weird.
And so I like the idea a lot.
And I've kind of run with it and had a lot of fun with it.
But it is -- I do feel a little bit of been there,
done that, you know, and I'd like to move on.
So if he wants another World War II thing,
he's going to have to -- I'm probably not,
this is going to be the last
of the World War II books for a while.
But I love that time period, especially in Seattle.
It's, you know, like I say,
it was this -- it was a town
that was really affected between the, you know,
the incarceration of all the Japanese Americans
that was going on here.
I mean --
-Also referred to in your book.
-Yes. Yes. I refer to "The Enemy at Home"
and a lot of the other things that were going on,
like at Boeing and such.
So.
-It was interesting in your book where you talk about,
you know,
because the plot kind of turns on the bad guys' fear
of women in power.
It was very interesting to me,
and will be interesting to other readers,
I think, to show Boeing at that time,
which brought in women workers.
And the responses, not only the responses to them as women,
but also at that time the prejudice against people
who were not white men, basically.
-And what was interesting to find out was just
how tough it was for women to kind of come
into this men's world.
These men's resenting these women doing their jobs.
And it kind of --
I think to look at it from the men's perspective,
that these are men that weren't fighting.
They weren't in the war.
So that was their only kind of, like, badge of honor,
is that they worked in the, you know, shipyards.
And here are women, women, coming in and doing their jobs.
And I think -- -Riveting.
-Yeah, I think they were really kind of very resentful.
And one of the things that hit me
was there's a great book called "Our Mother's War".
And I can't remember the name of the author,
but she told some great stories,
and I was really inspired by that and by Ken Burns's
"The War", to hear all about the prejudice that was going on.
There's a little incident that I have in my book
that is based on two different incidences from Ken Burns's
"The War" and from "Our Mother's War".
Where a woman is working with a Black worker
and she sees how it really bothers everybody around her.
-Oh, I see that in "The Enemy at Home".
You do --
-Right. -Yep. Yep.
-So that is almost,
no, I wouldn't say I lifted it from it,
but it's very similar to a couple of stories
that I have read. So.
-And I'm sure that was much more prevalent, you know,
than even those two.
-Oh, you got it.
-Yeah. Yeah.
So, I'm going to recommend a world --
since you're interested, not a World War II novel,
but since you're interested in setting your new book
around the Kennedy assassination --
-Yes.
-I want to recommend a novel for you to read for research,
because in my mind it was one of the few good things
that came out of that assassination is it's called
"Libra", L-I-B-R-A, and it's by Don DeLillo
and it's short and very, very, very, very, very good.
And there's a thriller,
oh boy, I haven't done this for a long time.
There's a thriller
which is set around the Kennedy assassination,
and it's called "Tears of Autumn".
And -- -Great title.
-Yeah, and once you,
my experience was once I read that book,
which posits the killer of Kennedy, the assassin,
or who is responsible,
I guess would be the responsible way to say that sentence,
who was responsible, I can never think about it
except in those terms, because the author made it so real.
You know, so try those books,
and then we could talk after that.
You could, you know -- -Oh, good.
Thank you. -Oh, I'd love that.
So, Kevin O'Brien, thank you so much for coming by.
And I love seeing,
and I know the viewers will love seeing your writing space
and knowing that it was a Murphy bed.
-It looks like a train, you know?
Doesn't it look like I'm in a train car or something?
-Yes, and it harkens back to your career
on the railroad and all of that.
And thank you for insisting to your agent and your editor
that you wanted to break out and do, you know,
a historical novel, because I love learning history from you.
-Yes, and I hope I taught a little bit of history in there.
-Oh yeah, no, definitely.
I mean, I really got a sense of what those women,
leaving aside the thriller aspect,
but the domestic stuff about, you know,
Rosie the Riveter women, was just fascinating to me.
And thank you for, after a decade or so,
for coming back on Book Lust.
-And let's do it again, within another decade, for sure.
-Okay.
-Thank you, Nancy. -You're welcome.
Thank you.
♪♪