-Hello, I'm your host, Brian Callanan.
What effect will new "stay out" zones have on Seattle
when it comes to preventing drug crimes,
sex trafficking and gun violence?
And why has the City Council presented an alternative
to a voter-supported proposal to pay for social housing?
I'm with councilmembers Bob Kettle and Joy Hollingsworth
asking these questions
and the ones you're sending in, too,
next on "City Inside Out: Council Edition."
-The regional homeless authority hasn't been
as successful as we want to.
There are a ton of improvements that we need to make.
-We have to disrupt what's happening
in these neighborhoods,
because these neighborhoods have the risk
of falling into despair.
-All that and more
coming up next on "City Inside Out: Council Edition."
♪♪
Well, it has been a very busy September
for the Seattle City Council,
and I very much appreciate having these two councilmembers
with me here on the Seattle Channel.
Councilmember Joy Hollingsworth,
who represents the third district.
Very good to see you. -Likewise. Thank you.
-We also have with us councilmember Bob Kettle
from district seven.
Good to see you, too.
-Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
-You got it. Let's get into it.
And Councilmember Kettle, I want to start with you
and talk about the SOAP and SODA legislation
the Council has recently passed.
You were a sponsor on that SODA bill.
Those acronyms stand for "Stay Out of Drug Areas"
and "Stay Out of Areas of Prostitution."
These measures would ban people accused
or convicted of certain lower-level crimes
from coming into these areas.
An infraction would bring gross misdemeanor charges.
There will be six SODAs and one SOAP citywide
once this goes through the mayor's office,
and we've received some questions from our viewers,
Councilmember Kettle.
They want to know this...
Well, they have to recognize someone
Also, another person writes...
Big thanks to Tim and Blake for those questions.
And Councilmember Kettle, let's talk about enforcement.
How do cops enforce SODA,
especially with the low number of officers we have?
And also,
how do you keep this drug activity
from simply getting pushed into another neighborhood?
-Uh, first, in terms of bringing out the SODA,
we had a great amount of collaboration
in terms of the executive, the city attorney's office,
but we also got input from the Seattle Municipal Court.
So when the judge makes their decision --
And it's important to note,
the judges make a decision on each individual case
and individual circumstances,
and then it comes into the clerk's system,
and then it comes over officially into SPD.
And for, like, West Precinct,
they'll come into West Precinct
and they'll be notified of who the person is.
And as you know, because of the officers,
but also the community, they know who's --
like, particularly the drug dealers, who they are.
And so they have a good understanding
of who's in the neighborhood,
even though they have low numbers.
And so, yes, if they come across
or if they're picked up for another crime
and then they're found on the list,
then that's when that kicks in.
And, you know, I understand the point about the neighborhoods.
And, you know, some people --
the term "whac-a-mole" is often used and...
-It's gonna show up somewhere else, right.
-Yes. And I understand that.
And I've been working this for 10 years between Queen Anne
and now the city.
But we have to disrupt what's happening in these neighborhoods
because these neighborhoods have the risk
of falling into despair.
You know, take Belltown for example.
You know, we have 3rd, Pike and Pine,
12th, Jackson and King chronically challenged areas,
but we're at risk of creating new
chronically challenged areas.
And it's hard to come back from that.
And so instead of letting Belltown, for example,
that area of 2nd and Bell and so forth fall into that,
we need to take action now to disrupt.
Yes, there may be some movement to other areas,
but that will be also addressed under --
Because it's still a crime.
So there will still work those issues, you know,
but we have to take it
because we have to look out for our neighborhoods.
-Okay. Thank you very much for that.
Councilmember Hollingsworth,
you advocated for a SODA zone in your district, D3.
It'll run from East Thomas down to Union,
stretch between 11th Avenue and Harvard
on the east and west.
I have some more comments on this issue, too,
to direct your way.
Some people want even harsher laws.
They're saying...
Others point to the fact
that Seattle has used this tactic before, saying...
How do you respond to those questions?
Why did you want a SODA zone in your district?
-Yeah. If you go to Capitol Hill back in 2019,
it's very different than what it looks like right now in 2024.
I spoke to residents,
I connected with small-business owners.
I talked to people who live and work on Capitol Hill,
and they're affected by the outdoor fentanyl crisis
that is ravaging our community.
And so when you have --
I think what people really need to understand
is 12th and Jackson, 3rd and Pike/Pine,
you also have Capitol Hill.
That is a active triangle that we have drug dealers
and people that are --
are preying on vulnerable folks in these areas.
We are trying to disrupt something.
We're trying to do something different.
We're trying to give more tools to our officers.
And I will never give up trying
for us to have a better community.
The other piece of this, Brian,
that I want people to understand,
is we're still investing in all the extra additional pieces
of public safety -- the services, the treatment.
Those are not going away.
But we have to have guardrails in our city.
-Okay. And I'll get back to that point in just a little bit.
But I wanted to focus on SOAP, too,
if I could -- stay out of areas of prostitution.
This focuses on preventing sex trafficking
and the crimes associated with it on North Aurora.
This also drew a lot of commentary
and a series of public meetings here in September,
with a majority of opposition from people
who work in the sex trade.
-You heard me, yes? You -- You, yes, are going to kill us.
This bill is going to kill us.
What do you expect will happen
when you criminalize sex-work fervor
and remove any sort of support for us?
-In support of SOAP,
there were some neighbors from North Seattle.
-The city must take action to address
the increased gun violence and sex trafficking
along Aurora corridor
that is putting nearby residents in danger.
-Councilmember Hollingsworth, four years ago,
the council repealed SOAP because it was found
to have disproportionate impacts on communities of color.
Are you convinced the 2024 version of this bill
is going to have a different impact?
-Yeah, I would really encourage people to read the bill
and what it has in there
and the guardrails in terms of understanding the data,
making sure that every two years, we're coming back
to evaluate it as a council.
But the biggest piece to this, Brian,
is that there are 12-, 13- and 14-year-old young girls
that are out there on Aurora right now
that we need to help and save.
I've talked to a ton of social workers,
people that are in this work every single day.
There are 6,000 kids that live along Aurora,
up from 145th all the way to 175 on the census track.
6,000 kids. What about their lives, too?
We have to continue to protect our city
and put guardrails on folks, and not just for the select few.
We will continue -- As a Black councilmember,
I will continue to make sure
that those disparities are not there,
and I'm hoping that people will trust
that I will help advocate for that.
But we have to enforce, you know, just common-sense laws.
-And you think that SOAP is needed to take that next step
to interact with these young girls?
-I believe SOAP is a necessary step
for us to have to disrupt the commercial sex-trafficking girls
that have been kidnapped on Aurora.
I do. -Yeah. Okay.
Councilmember Kettle, I want to bring you in here.
We had another e-mail come in about SOAP.
Uh, one writer asks this...
Thank you for that question.
Councilmember Kettle, I know the Council talks a lot
about being data driven.
Talk about that and SOAP
and what you're looking for in terms
of measuring the success of this.
-Um, that's a good question.
And it also goes to your previous question in terms
of my answer is we did a lot of due diligence,
particularly on SODA.
Like I worked with the city attorney's office, my team,
and they have data scientists that were looking at
where these hotspots are overlaying in terms
of the mapping and other issues,
like in terms of finding service providers.
So we did a lot of data look
in terms of what we're trying to do in terms
of setting up and also learning from the lessons learned
of the previous,
because the past SODA zones have worked, you know,
to varying degrees.
And so one of the things that we learned
is that we needed to tailor it, we needed to be focused.
And we're less than 0.5% of the city.
So it is really focused.
And this will also allow us on the back end
to really do the work in terms of understanding the data sets,
in terms of what's happening.
And as you saw in the bill, the bill includes these pieces.
It already had it. And then it was added to
by Councilmember Strauss's amendment.
So we're not shying away from our oversight,
you know, and accountability responsibilities
as city councilmembers.
You know, and another thing that came up yesterday,
too, regarding this in terms of the outreach,
like on the race and equity toolkit and so forth,
and they do their outreach and they said,
"Well, you could do some more maybe, like with the RTCC,
the Real-Time Crime Center."
-Yes, yes. -Uh, but here's the issue.
Before, like when the consent decree was set up,
there was no district representatives.
You know, when they were doing these things,
there was no district representatives.
We all ran -- We're district representatives.
We all ran on public safety.
We know our districts
and we're constantly talking to our constituents.
And so that is the thing that needs to be understand
that there's a lot of due diligence looking at
what's happened in the past, good and bad,
and looking to adjust and understanding
that we have what happened on our streets,
as Councilmember Hollingsworth pointed out.
And my mission is to create a safe base in the city.
And that's why we have our strategic framework plan
and we're pressing on it.
-Okay. Thank you for making those points.
That's an interesting distinction there
between the kind of council that we have now
and what we had back in 2011 and '12.
We did get some follow-up questions about services,
and I want to try to bring both of you in here, if I could.
Uh, let's talk about people
who might get arrested in these stay out zones.
We had one person writing this...
We had another person put it this way.
Who wants to weigh in there? What have we got?
-Yeah, yeah, more than happy to talk about it.
So we have made significant investments
on treatment resources, food accessibility, health.
And a lot of times I think what we have to continue to do
is elevate a lot of those programs that are operating.
When I'm talking to folks that are particularly in Capitol Hill
or otherwhere in our cities,
they're like, "Hey, who has the contract for this area?"
They just don't know, right?
And I know as a councilmember, "Hey,
well, I know that this group is servicing this area."
-Social outreach group. Yeah.
-And so, you know, we have -- During the budget season,
we're going to be looking really carefully on those outreach
and what investments need to be made in conjunction
to a lot of these guardrails
that we have put up in these communities.
That's going to be incredibly important.
They have to go hand in hand.
-Could you weigh in here, please, on this?
-Uh, two things.
One, I chair the public safety committee, and like I said,
we have our plan.
We have had a number of bills on the labor side,
two that have come through the governance and accountability
and a number through our Committee on Public Safety.
Paired to that is our colleagues like in Human Services.
And here's a point.
There's going to be a plus up in terms of helping the women --
the girls on Aurora.
You know what? That plus up in terms of services
would not have happened
if not for Councilmember Moore pushing SOAP.
-Yeah.
-People can say what they want,
but that plus up would not have happened
if not for what we're doing on SOAP,
which by the way, is primarily geared at the men,
either the buyers or the traffickers, the pimps.
And so we need to remember that. So we're putting pressure --
We're putting pressure on a lot of areas.
And we're doing that,
and it's showing up in a positive way.
One is going to be an increase for, for, you know,
in terms of, you know, diversion center,
other kind of aid for those women -- girls --
that are caught up on Aurora.
And other places by the way, it's not just Aurora.
-That's true. And I guess when you hear sex workers
and I know you heard a number of them testify here saying,
"This is going to hurt us, this is going to push us
further into the shadows," etcetera,
how do you respond to that piece?
-Well, it's a very important point, you know,
and by the way, I listened to that.
I listened to the public commenters, and I take it
and then I fold it back into my approach
and what things we may do.
And so here's the thing
to what Councilmember Hollingsworth is saying,
because it's the same thing,
like with Capitol Hill and the drug pieces,
what we have going on now is impacting the neighborhood.
Young girls, you know, the kids that are at Ingram or Cascadia
and, you know, the middle school there, too.
-Yeah.
-Um, and then because of the turf wars,
that's when you get the gun violence,
we have to take action.
But by taking action,
there's always the second and third order effects.
You know, for every action, there's a reaction.
And so the reaction was to place this in other areas.
And so we need to be proactive.
You know, the crisis response group,
you know, the police know. They're out.
And so they do have their staffing,
but they have an understanding.
And so then it's like, "Hey,
how can we help them look at those other areas
in terms of trying to --" It's the same thing with drugs.
You know, that point about early,
it's going to spread in other areas.
True. I know that. It's part of the plan.
But, you know, you have to then adjust.
The key thing is taking action
because what we can have is what we inherited
and what we've been dealing with throughout 2024.
-Alright. Thanks.
I want to move on to another hot topic this month, if I could.
The council has approved putting an alternative next to I-137
on the February 2025 ballot.
This is a citizen-led measure meant to provide funding
for social housing,
which Seattleites voted to approve last year.
137 would impose a 5% tax on employers on employee pay
above $1 million per year,
and raise about $50 million to build and purchase housing.
The council's new version would take $10 million annually
from the existing JumpStart payroll tax
and make sure this funding goes through the Office of Housing.
Councilmember Rivera sponsored this alternative,
calling it a smart fiscal move.
Councilmember Morales, who is the one vote of opposition,
says it sets up a competition for scarce resources.
-As stewards of public funds,
we are ultimately responsible for ensuring
that taxpayers see the intended returns on their investment.
We need to see results first.
-So pitting one type of developer against another
and making everybody compete for particular resources
is not the right answer.
-Councilmember Kettle,
the original intent of the social housing bill
was not to compete with other housing funding sources.
Can you help me with your reasoning
for proposing this alternative?
-Well, I took the first action,
which took it off the agenda because, "A," it came late to us
and we hadn't had our chance to look through it,
particularly because of the legal issues.
Um, it was going to get challenged in court afterwards.
It was going to lose.
-So this was why it's in February and not November.
-In February. And then if it was to pass in November or February,
it would be challenged in court and it would be struck down.
So then you would have nothing.
So what we have now is a plan that's legally defensible.
It falls within the government,
the laws in terms of the oversight and accountability,
with OH and the City Council and everything else.
-Yep, Office Housing.
-And then on top of that, we were smart on the funding,
you know, crawl, step, walk and run,
as we saw with the King County Regional Homeless Authority,
you know, false start in terms of stand up.
We can't -- You know, you can't sprint right at the get-go.
You have to build up.
And so this plan allows for that.
And if they do a great job, it will continue and build.
And so we have to understand that piece.
And then for me, you know, the governance structure,
we just -- King County Regional Homeless Authority
would have ended --
-We're going to talk about that in a minute.
-It was going to end on December 19th
but for all the changes that are coming up,
all the reforms.
Smaller version,
but the PDA for the social housing --
-Development authority.
-Yeah. Sorry on the acronyms. -You got it.
-You know, it was heading in that direction,
too, in terms of governance.
So we had to address those three pieces, the structure.
So we had to address those three in my view.
That's the reason why, you know,
initially I pulled it off the agenda
in terms of getting the legal review executive session
and then supporting Councilmember Rivera,
who did a fantastic job, by the way,
taking her experience on the executive, bringing it in,
working with central staff,
working with the City Attorney's office and others
to craft a bill
that will allow them to stand up a social housing PDA --
Public Development Authority. -Thank you.
Councilmember Hollingsworth, I want to bring you in here.
The other big difference
I'm seeing with the council's alternative
is that it caps renter income at 80%.
The original social housing bill that voters approved last year
had this model where that cap was at 120%.
The idea was higher rents would help subsidize
lower-income rents.
It just feels like maybe the spirit
of what voters said yes to last year
is not really reflected in the council's alternative.
-Yeah. You know, what Councilmember Kettle
had talked about, I completely agree with.
I think what we were trying to do,
and this is going to give up to the voters,
that's the beautiful part.
The voters can decide something
that's going to be held up legally in court
and also really target the people
that most need it in our city in terms of like 80%, AMI.
You're talking about teachers, bus drivers, workers --
You're talking about all of them to make sure
that they have someplace to live.
There's nobody on the council, Brian,
that does not believe that we don't need more housing.
We all want more housing,
but we want to be fiscally responsible as well.
-Got it. Thank you very much.
I'm going to try to pick up the pace ever so slightly with you,
if I could here, on some other questions.
The council has been working on this new agreement
with the King County Regional Homelessness Authority --
Let's bring this back in here --
so that there would be only one governing board for this agency,
reducing it from the three that it had before.
And Councilmember Kettle,
you brought this up a little while ago.
This agency has had a lot of trouble getting off the ground
since it launched about three years ago.
How do you think this new arrangement is going to help
our region respond in a better way to the homelessness crisis?
-I think it's going to help in a couple of ways.
One is going to fix the governance structure.
I mean, this is leadership management 101.
You know, everybody should have known at the beginning,
by the way,
all those that are part of the creation of this
should have known at the beginning.
I know this from my military experience.
I know it from my studies at the Evans School.
You can't have this multiple, you know,
too many cooks in the kitchen. -Okay.
-So you had to have that, you know, that structure.
And then we had to have better business, you know,
operations of the -- of the, you know, of the KCRHA as well.
And I think there's already improvements on that front.
And see, here's the thing,
I do believe in the regional approach.
But if you're going to be attractive
to our regional partners, you've got to be squared away.
And this allows us to get squared away.
It will make us more attractive,
you know, make the argument for them to join into this.
So it's not just a King County, Seattle thing.
Okay. We have the sound... -Sound city ordinance.
-...to the north. But we need to do more.
And the way we do more is to create a KCRHA
that goes to this reform, shows that it's worth it
and shows that the regional approach is the right approach.
-Do you think you're going to get some more cities come in?
I know that's been the big pushback on this
over the past three years.
-Yeah, I do believe it.
I mean, we've done it in the council.
I mean, we've had a major change in the council
and we have reformed,
if you will, the council in terms of our approach.
We could do the same thing with KCRHA.
-Okay. I'm interested to see that.
Councilmember Hollingsworth, also on this,
Seattle provides 42% of the KCRHA's budget,
more than $100 million.
I wanted to ask,
do you think the city is getting a good return
on investment with those dollars there?
Do you see this agency providing some good ideas
for the use of that money? Where are we going here?
-Yeah, I'm still supporting
the King County Regional Homeless Authority,
but we need to see results.
Your question to Councilmember Kettle, which was great,
"Hey, are we going to see some more cities in there?"
Yeah. If we have great results
and we see an impact on what's going on.
It's no -- It's no,
you know, surprise that, you know, the regional
homeless authority hasn't been as successful as we want to.
There are a ton of improvements that we need to make.
I'm looking forward to those, to having the impact,
because we see the crisis on our streets
and we need to have a better impact.
-Okay. Thank you very much for that.
Councilmember Hollingsworth, I want to go back to you
and talk about some legislation you had
concerning the minimum wage tip credit.
You were considering this in August. As of right now,
as I understand it, you're not moving forward with it.
This tip credit's been in place since 2015.
It's set to expire at the end of this year.
So this means businesses with fewer than 500 employees
who had been paying a $17.25 hourly wage
are going to have to pay what the larger businesses pay,
which is $19.97 per hour.
You got labor groups saying, "Hey,
this is what businesses agreed to 10 years ago."
Some small businesses saying, "This is going to shut us down."
I know you said back in August you were working
to have a discussion among stakeholders on this.
Do you plan to have any new legislation on this issue
before the end of the year?
-So we've been talking.
So my goal was to show the red flag that's coming
and the financial cliff that's coming for a lot
of our small businesses and local businesses.
And it's about the tip credit.
There are a ton of servers that have reached out that say,
"Hey, we don't want to lose our tips because of this.
You know, this is -- this is, you know,
we're making $40, $50 an hour in some cases."
Some people are making differently because of tips.
And that's going to really impact folks.
And so ideally it was like, hey, you know,
restaurants would take on a 2,025% increase.
And so it was like, "Hey, can we figure out a ladder for them?
COVID hit. It's been three years.
They are climbing out of this financial crisis
that we've been in," and we want to continue to have jobs.
That was my goal.
We're still having talks with folks on labor and business.
We have a great group of stakeholders.
We're going to continue those discussions to see,
are there other ways
in which the city can help save these small businesses,
because they're the heartbeat of our city.
-So potentially something --
I guess it would have to be December at this point
because it's budget time right now.
-Yeah, I don't -- Yeah.
You know, I'm not going to put a timeline on the table.
I know that we're in a crunch,
but I do know that we're trying to think of any type
of creative ways for this.
And my goal was to take it, scale it back.
Let's bring down the temperature.
Let's actually focus on these issues
and really have some solutions. -Okay.
Councilmember Kettle,
have you been hearing from small businesses
in your district about this?
Do you have a stance on this issue?
-Yes, I do on a regular basis.
And this goes back to my earlier point on public safety.
We're so engaged on so many fronts,
um, in terms of the, you know,
the small restaurants, the eateries and the like,
and we're going to hit that cliff and it's going to be real,
and we do need to talk through it.
And at this point,
we also should be, you know, good governance, okay.
When we do lose these businesses, what's our plan "B"?
You know, what's the -- what's the action that we can take
if this does happen?
We need to be planning now.
We can't just wait. "Oh, it happened.
Oh, let's react." Let's anticipate.
And it's like, "Okay, what can we do?"
And that's part of -- By the way,
that's part of the conversations that are happening
is, like, what can happen in terms of support
of these small businesses, these small restaurants and the like.
And it's a -- it's a -- it's very difficult because of the,
you know, the financial and just the bottom-line factors.
-Sure.
-But then there's the piece that, you know,
they did negotiate the agreement.
And so, hey, let's follow through.
-Yeah, yeah.
-Brian, can I just say one more thing,
which is incredibly important? -Please.
-If you are a server working in the city,
you should -- One job should be enough.
Like, I completely agree with that.
You should be making a livable wage
to be able to survive in this city.
Right?
And so how can we marry that with our small businesses
to make sure they can continue to survive,
but we're not building it off the back of, you know,
the labor and the minimum wage? I get that.
So it's a delicate balance
and hopefully we'll find some solutions.
-Thank you. Councilmember Kettle,
I wanted to talk about the council's land use committee.
They just passed this measure that would impact your district,
uh, around land use in particular.
The bill says housing, hotels, research and development labs
would be exempted from design review
to potentially help them get things built more quickly.
I know you've said before,
you like the concept of design review.
It gets more community input here.
What's your take on this new bill
to exempt some developments from that process?
-I think, um, first, in terms you hinted at it,
I do believe in design review.
I believe in having that conversation
between the developers and the community,
because I think it can make for a better project,
and I can list off a number just from
my experience in Queen Anne. -mm-hmm.
-Um, I do recognize, though,
that it could be used as a weapon by groups
from the community.
And, and, you know,
the developer site is not innocent necessarily either.
So to councilmembers' point about guardrails,
we need to reform the design-review process
so that this exchange can happen.
But it doesn't get hung up and it doesn't get purposely,
you know, used to stymie.
And then this is really important
because I hear from the developers, too,
is that if they have financing agreed to,
then they're locked in.
And so it has to happen at a certain timeline.
And so we can't be held up in that way.
And in terms of the number of meetings and so forth.
And STCI needs to do its job. -Yeah.
-And so we need to make those decisions,
because if that lock, you know, is gone,
then that throws away the whole financing piece.
And as you know, with the increase of rates,
that had huge impacts.
Now, rates are coming back the other way,
so we'll see what happens.
But we need to be, you know, professional, adult about this.
Have a great conversation.
And, oh, by the way, the state's going to force us
because the state law is going to push a lot of this as well.
-Yeah. That's coming up next year.
-Right.
So there's a few things with the design review bill
as it is particularly related to logistics,
you know, the delivery of goods and services.
I'm concerned about pushing all that onto our streets,
which as you know,
with the transportation plan, the transportation levy,
I've already got a lot going on and we can't add to that.
But I do like the idea of --
particularly because of the cliff of the increased rates,
given that opportunity.
-Okay. Thank you very much for that.
I need to wrap up with you,
and I want to get input from both of you
about the budget you're going to be tackling
over the next couple of months here.
Dealing with this budget cap of roughly $260 million.
What are your plans to make up that difference?
What priorities are you going in with?
Councilmember Hollingsworth? -Yeah.
So we get the budget next week sent down from the executive.
We're going to be doing a deep dive in that.
Then we have a following week of, you know,
departments coming in doing their presentations.
And then our office we're going to be supporting, you know,
protecting our family,
our health services, anything for youth and kids.
Obviously, the public safety piece, housing,
there's a lot of things that are going to be --
that we have as our North Star to make sure that we are not,
you know, falling back on as a city.
And I know that it's going to be a tough challenge.
We're going to have to look at every single department.
But, you know, we won't know until next week
until, you know, that budget is sent down.
-Fair enough.
Councilmember Kettle, I'll jump to you.
I know the council hasn't been too keen on the idea
of trying to find new revenue sources.
Are we talking about cuts?
Are we talking about borrowing from JumpStart here?
Can you talk about this to wrap up?
-I think, you know, as chair of the public safety,
my first job is, you know,
the public safety piece and not just for my district,
but for the whole city.
So I've been engaging on that on a regular basis.
And the executives come down, I don't know the details,
but they have their bands.
I know public safety is a priority.
Also my understanding, human services is also a priority,
which goes back to your point
in terms of working with Councilmember Moore.
Um, but the other areas are going to be, you know,
at risk and then it's like, "Hey,
what have you done in terms of performance, 'A,'
'B,' you know, has there been a huge increase?"
And, you know, as you know from the private sector,
when there's huge increases, after a certain period of time,
you have to take a stop and bring it back a little bit.
-Okay.
-And so there's going to be opportunities to,
you know, look at the budget from that perspective.
-Okay. Thank you both for this. Really appreciate the time.
And we will see you next time on "Council Edition."
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