[ Applause ]
-I'm excited to get to read
how other folks are engaging work
and thinking about organizing community,
and building spaces,
and navigating the nuance and the contradictions.
And thinking about how do we build the world
that we want to live in?
I feel like so many books that I get to read on praxes
are always devoid of the stories of the people
who are actually engaging in the work.
And I love that it's folks who I feel like I connect with,
people with intersectional identities,
people in communities like the ones we're in here.
And so first off, I just want to say thank you
for engaging and writing
and doing something that uplifts and amplifies the words
and the work of people on the front lines.
I think that's really powerful.
And I know you've been asked a million times,
Why did you write the book? So I'm not going to ask that.
What I actually want to know is what makes you excited
about this book now being in the world?
-Yeah, I mean, thank you, first of all.
And thank you for sitting down with me
and talking with me for the book.
Because you were definitely one of the first people I thought of
when trying to think of who I wanted to talk to.
And, you know,
I know the generosity of that, to take that time.
And, you know, I think what makes me excited,
one, you know, is like you said I think every time that,
you know, we have this kind of cycle of strife
or things are in a new cycle,
people want to invent a new way of getting out in the world
and people are like, What if I did this?
Or people are just completely frozen, right?
And the idea that people have been doing this work
and that what you see in the headlines,
even when we're making progress,
is the culmination of years of labor
that often is unappreciated, unseen, unsupported.
You know, I really wanted to bring that to people,
because it's such a beautiful story.
And so first and foremost,
it's been so exciting to watch people,
you know, who are profiled in the book,
like, see themselves seen, you know?
And, like, getting messages from people saying, like,
I've never really felt seen in the work
I've done until this year.
And so seeing that pride and excitement.
But then watching community members get excited.
So getting, like -- I get messages,
or people will tag me and say, you know, This is in my town.
I had no idea this was happening in my town,
and I'm so excited to find it and support it.
And so that's been really fun.
People supporting the businesses that are featured,
people supporting the orgs that are featured,
you know, going out and meeting people, going to meetings.
Like, you know, it's been very, very exciting in that sense.
And also hearing from people saying,
Oh, I've reached out to this org
because I've been trying to do something similar in my city.
And, you know, they've been willing to sit with me
because, you know -- I'm going move this earring.
This earring is going to be a problem.
I could -- we never account for how much I just articulate.
All right.
-Also, earrings are just, like,
an important part of the 'fit.
-They are. I'm really upset about this.
-I think you could start a trend though.
It could be a one-earring --
-Right. -One earring thing.
-All right, y'all saw it and appreciated it.
-No one take pictures of the left side of the face.
-Yeah, no photos until I can put that back.
Yeah, and so, you know, watching that and watching people,
you know, sparks fly, even just, I got actually a DM today
from a lovely person who was a fan of my work
who had sent me a bunch of chili peppers that he grew.
-Nice.
-And they're amazing and the spiciest peppers
I've ever had in my life.
And I actually just used them last night
to make some pepper soup for a neighbor who had surgery.
And, you know, he reached out
and he just said, By the way, you know,
I've been trying to start my pepper business.
And then I read your chapter on business and realized
I could make an abolitionist pepper business.
And I was like, This is amazing.
-Burn it -- burn it down.
-Exactly. -With peppers.
-Exactly. -I'm here for it. Let's go.
-Trademark that one right there. Like, that's amazing.
-I'm ready.
-So yeah, that's been really fun to watch
where people go with it.
You know, I wasn't expecting to get a DM saying
I'm going to start an abolitionist pepper business,
but, you know, I'm all for it.
-Yeah, it feels like it's meant to be.
-Right.
-There's, like, so many different types of stories
and so many different people doing work.
How did you decide what stories to tell?
I can't imagine, like, even how you decided what not to include
because just our conversation alone
was probably an hour and 15 minutes,
and I talk fast so there's a lot of words.
-Yeah, no, I mean, that was the wild --
I mean, the conversations I had,
the reams of paper of transcripts
from the conversations was huge.
And it was really difficult to actually really narrow it down.
It was sort of an organic process.
You know, I had some people I knew right away
I wanted to talk with.
But then I always tried to ask people, like,
Who would you like to see? Who's inspiring you?
And that introduced me to a lot of different people.
My research process is -- I have ADHD,
and I'm always trying to work with that in my writing.
And so I really do have, like, a funnel process
because I've learned if I try to constrain
all of the avenues my brain wants to go into,
I'm doomed from the start. And so my research is like,
Let me spend months researching everything.
So I have, like, a full drawer filled with hundreds
and hundreds of articles on every possible topic
that intersects with race.
Yeah, and do that and then it's, like, searching for story
and then trying to find the themes in the conversations.
So the hard part really for me was realizing, like,
I couldn't go down every avenue I wanted to.
Otherwise, the book was going to be, like, 500, 600 pages long
and people don't read books that long these days.
-You're ready for part two, then.
-Yeah, and there's a whole chapter I had to cut in the end,
which was really, you know, tough,
but we, you know, I don't know, the internet, like,
it's really hard when you get to a certain page count,
people just aren't going to, you know,
they'll pretend to read it if you're an Obama, you know,
but I don't read it either. It's too long.
You know, but, like, after a while, you know,
you have to have it there, so that was, for me,
it was once I started interviewing people
and I started looking at themes.
And so I learned early on I couldn't write the book
until I was done talking with everyone.
And so once I started to find themes around things,
it helped shape where the chapters were going to be
and then where I needed to talk with more people,
where I didn't, where I couldn't.
And a lot of this book was really shaped
by what people were telling me.
And so the themes ended up being a lot broader than I thought.
I really had real specifics
I was digging into in my research.
And then what I realized is,
you know, no one works in one field.
Like if, you know, people were to say you're a lawyer, like,
people have an idea of what a lawyer is or does --
-Right. --- right?
But when it comes to the work you do, it's so broad
and you could go into -- -A million areas
-Exactly, exactly.
And so that was really where, you know, it ended up being.
Like, okay, does this fit in this overall theme,
this picture that's emerging in these segments of society?
-Which I love, because, you know,
when I think about abolition,
we tend to talk about prison and police,
but abolition is environmental justice,
it's climate justice, it's economic justice,
it's food justice, it's housing justice.
There's so many things that go into building
a world beyond carceral systems.
And I listened to your book. I tried to read it.
I have a, what do you call it, dyslexia?
So I'll be trying to read a book and I get lost.
So I was like, Let me listen to Ijeoma's wonderful voice.
I did put it at two times the speed,
it's the trick, y'all.
But what really stuck with me is just, like,
how the solution to the problems
that we as abolitionists are digging through are --
they are broad, they are expansive,
they are multifaceted, they are not one-size-fits-all.
When you're thinking about and talking about abolition
and you probably inevitably get the answer
in spaces that's like, Well, what do we do about,
insert whatever crime they want to give,
how do you talk about abolition,
now having had so many robust conversations with people
that are approaching it from so many different angles?
-That's a great question and yeah, you know,
that kind of fear-mongering of we don't want to take this step
until we know exactly how it's going to work out.
Well, one, you know, my standard is to actually look
at what happens, right? So people are like, you know,
What are you going to do if a murderer comes to your house?
You're going to get murdered, just like you would now.
You know, a cop is not actually going to magically show up
at the same time as the murderer and stop that from happening.
-This is true.
-Cops respond to crime, if they do at -- most.
-Not in this city.
-Right and, yeah, and when they don't feel like it,
when they want to prove a point of some sort, they won't at all.
Or if they don't like the neighborhood
or the people, you know. -Long list.
-Yeah, it's a long list of reasons.
But at best, police officers will respond to a crime
after it's already happened.
So -- but these worst-case scenarios that are informed
by like these TV shows of, like,
a cop bursting in to save -- you know, that doesn't happen.
-Yeah. -It just doesn't happen.
And so recognizing that, the reality of that,
as scary as that is,
like, we already have a reality right now
where we don't actually have an effective entity
that prevents crime from happening.
And actually what abolition aims to do
is to look at the societal issues that cause, like,
it's the only thing looking at cause
and saying let's address this.
But it's also, you know, abolition is not, you know,
the concept of freedom, like, our focus is often on policing
because it is the strongest, you know,
most direct continuation of chattel slavery.
But freedom in itself doesn't just end it.
I don't want to be killed by a police officer or locked away,
you know, but the idea of liberation is broader than that.
And so that was something that was so inspiring
and amazing and challenging for me
in the conversations with people.
Was watching people who were trying to say,
What does it mean to integrate this in my day-to-day life?
If, you know, we're trying to do this,
there's theory and there's practice.
And if we can't snap our fingers and create a world
without police, we can at least make sure
that we're not the police in our family,
in our business, in our schools, in our community, right?
So what does it look like? To look at our relationships,
to look at how we're structuring business,
and our intimate relationships,
and, you know, all of these sorts of things.
And so that, for me, is really inspiring
because you can point to what a carceral mentality looks like
and the way in which it fills all of our lives,
and how we can get a little more free
by addressing all of it and building alternatives.
And that, you know, there is the thing
you want to get rid of,
and then there's the thing you want to build.
Absolutely. And we often forget the thing we want to build.
-Absolutely.
-And we often forget the thing we want to build.
And even if we can't get rid of the thing
we want to get rid of, we can still build.
And in building, it makes it easier
to get rid of the thing we want to get rid of.
-To render that obsolete.
-Exactly, you know? Like, there's -- there's the,
Oh, I didn't actually have to call the police
because we have the services in place
where this isn't happening, or we already knew who to call
who could actually come in and interrupt harm.
And that is the part that often gets ignored,
that, you know, that doesn't make headlines.
And yet it's the part that people are really trying
to figure out day in and day out.
And it's the biggest challenge,
because that's where we've all been, you know,
we've all been brought up in this system to believe,
that power is your ability to exact revenge upon people
and to punish people.
And not collective power, to be able to protect each other
and stand up with each other and, you know, heal together
and, you know, build something together.
That's not how we've defined power
in the United States, especially.
And so looking at that and looking at how powerful
everyone was who really leaned into that
and how vital that was, I think, like,
that's the story of abolition we don't talk about enough.
-Absolutely.
You know, the other part of that that sticks with me
is folks in your stories don't seem obsessed
with needing to make massive change.
They seem deeply committed to making change
in their sphere of influence.
Are there a few examples from the book,
or even ones you couldn't include,
that you feel like really emulate this idea of --
because I really think about Mariame Kaba's
A Million Experiments.
And this idea that replacing this singular system
that treats everyone with a one-size-fits-all
response to harm, or even the potential of harm,
is not replacing it with another singular system.
It's actually replacing it with a million different ways
that people can select or self-determine
how they do the prevention, intervention, and healing work.
Are there -- what is a story or two
that really stuck with you as you were developing this?
-Yeah, I think that that is such an important thing.
And I do think that's something like when I was in conversation
with Bill from complex movements,
that they were really clear about.
-Shout out to Detroit. -Right, right, absolutely.
And, you know, we had to include some Detroit workers
and there was no way we could skip
Detroit in a book about revolution.
And, you know, they were talking about
how you can have the same problem,
the same overarching evil like hypercapitalism,
white supremacy,
and it will look different in all of the areas
it touches down and all the ways it acts.
But also you can have the same idea of freedom
or even the same concept around a movement
and it will look different in every place it's being enacted.
Because the needs of each community,
the needs of how community is being
impacted is all different. And so you can work together,
you can find that you can learn from each other,
but you also have to be able to adapt
and keep things hyperlocal.
And I love the idea of that, of how we can actually see,
you know, this similar problem and then not say,
Let me prescribe a solution for you, but instead say,
Let me stand in solidarity with you and support
what you need in your space.
You know, and if you want advice, you know,
anything like that, I'm here. And that's so beautiful.
And I feel almost like the book
is a constellation of that as well.
Like, I hope people would look through that and say,
Oh, this is what this looks like in this community.
And so even looking at things like,
when I was talking with Darnesha Weary about black coffee.
Which will just be right up the street soon.
Darnesha's here somewhere, right here.
-Right here, shout out.
-And even just simple things that she talked about,
adjustments and realizing, like,
Oh, if you're going to be hiring high schoolers,
uniforms actually aren't a great idea for a business.
And why have kids feel stressed
when they've already got to worry about sports clothes
and school clothes and book bags?
And, like, why is that a thing stopping young people
from having a job? -Absolutely.
-You know, like, why wouldn't we adjust
to the workforce that we want
and what they need, right? And, like,
something that simple, like, when we consider people going,
Oh, well, if you want the job, wear -- why, though?
Why, you know? What's the point in that?
-Control.
-Exactly, you know, and really, you know,
prepping people for this really capitalist idea
of don't question, just do what you have to do.
And something that simple of, Oh, this doesn't work for you?
Okay, and we're not doing that, you know?
Then looking at, you know,
looking at how hyperlocal a lot of these, like,
Freedom, Inc., looking at the work
that they've been doing in the Midwest,
and, like, looking at how they're, like,
We are in these very specific communities,
and their people's budget
I think is such a beautiful example.
And so if you read in the book,
they talk about how at the same time that the city --
I believe they're --
I'm trying to remember what city they're in.
At the same time that the city that they're in releases
their budget, they release a people's budget,
which is the result of them going
and surveying underrepresented communities in their area
and asking them what their priorities are.
And then they release the people's budget
and they release how they're going to spend their funds
based on what the community said is a priority.
And they do it at the same time with their little area
to try to show the city what impact even a small org
can make when you're listening to people
and their priorities, right?
And so instead of having these national conversations,
and I, you know, I have a political science degree,
I spent years listening to the white dudes argue
over which economic theory
was better than what economic theory.
And it's all, you know, in this weird, fake world
they made up where, you know,
Oh, I'm a Keynesian, no, oh, you know, and it's --
none of it actually applies to how people live in the world.
-They live in a theoretical world.
-Exactly, you know? And that's why I swore
I would never debate a white man again in my life and I refuse.
I already had to do it in college
and it was insufferable then,
and I was only, you know, in my 20s.
So it's just -- but it's beautiful to watch, saying,
Hey, you know, when you listen to the people like you
can come up with something that can make a measurable
difference in the lives of people.
And we can make more of a difference
with this little budget -- -Yeah.
--- than this city can make with their millions
and millions of dollars.
And so that was such a beautiful example to me of, like,
not only trying something different,
but making it very transparent.
And using it not only to be effective
and trying to make a difference in their area,
but then trying to be an example for the broader area as well.
-Yeah, and what I love about that
is you're talking about, like, being descriptive
and not, like, prescriptive.
Because, like, here in Seattle, we have solidarity budget,
and when the mayor releases his budget,
they release a budget based on things
that community-based organizations
have identified and said, like,
If the city really cared about us,
here's what the budget would look like.
And it's different. You got -- LA has their people's budget,
New York has their people's budget.
And I think what's dope about that is each area's able to take
what aspect of that organizing tool,
of that imagining a world that we want to live in,
and make it work for the organizing
and the work that they're doing in their space.
And thinking about that, the world is in,
like, such grave crisis. The world is always in crisis.
And right now it's so visible and palpable
as we think about Palestine and Congo and Sudan
and all of the things that need to happen.
The genocide of trans loved ones here on Turtle Island.
How would you hope people look at this text
and think about the ways they can engage
in these larger struggles?
Because I go to bed every night and I'm like,
Did I do enough -- -Right.
--- knowing that my tax dollars
are being spent on weapons and war and genocide?
Did I do enough knowing that literally people
in our communities,
some have absolutely nowhere to go
and will be criminalized that evening?
And then I sit and I think about,
Yeah, like, today I made sure 45 young people ate dinner.
I made sure all of my staff had the resources that they need,
we got young people housed.
And by the end of these next two months,
$65,000 will move into other people's families and homes.
So yeah, we did something, right?
But it's still, even in the midst of all that, too easy --
or maybe too hard, because sometimes it's our,
like, own shame,
as opposed to our living in our hope of what we can do
that we go to bed in that place of, like, almost being defeated.
When folks read this, how do you hope
that will inspire them to engage
in some of these larger movements,
but from the sphere of influence that they personally have?
-You know, I think you voiced so much
that I think a lot of people go through.
You voiced some things that I think are really specific
to movement workers, right,
which is that feeling of, like, you're doing this
and it's not enough and how much is enough.
And then that feeling that I think everyone has,
even just being, like, empathetic people,
absorbing what's happening in the world
and not even knowing where to start.
And, one, I would say it's important to recognize
the cost of that,
of the feeling that it's all on you,
that it's never enough,
that you have to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing
and that you exist to do this work,
and that joy isn't a thing you can have,
that a feeling of accomplishment isn't a thing you can have.
The cost of that was really clear
in so many of the conversations
I had with people, of what it costs people.
And that was something that was so clear for me
when talking with people. There were so many times
where I wanted to just wrap my arms
around people and be like, What you're doing is so amazing.
Like, you are so precious and beautiful and important
to our communities. And I wanted to be, like --
I wanted to hold them the way they hold community, right?
And recognizing that, I think that's something that
you'll recognize as you read it. Like, you'll love these people.
You're like, there's so much love in them.
-Absolutely.
-And I just want everyone to know this in the work,
like, you're one of those people, right?
So that means people want that for you, the same,
and you're as vital.
And it's easy to forget that because we're always told that,
you know, if there is struggle to be had,
that you show how much you care
by how much you're willing to struggle.
And any joy means that you don't care enough about it,
or rest means that you're not, you know,
caring enough about it. But instead,
it's an acknowledgement that you are part
of the community you're fighting for,
that you're trying to save, that you have that value.
-Yeah.
-And then the other thing that was really important to me
that I saw that I think kept people hyper-local was
when you're really connected to community
and you're insisting on recognizing the value
of every member of your community,
then you can't dismiss the progress you make.
You can't dismiss, even if it's only one person,
that person is everything. And you can't dismiss that.
You can recognize the hurt and pain around every loss we have,
because we will have losses. And that's real.
But we also don't get to say we do this work
because we care about community,
but what we do for them isn't enough to matter.
It has to matter.
And that is the thing that I want people to see,
is that there are reflections
of everything you see on a national level
happening in your town, in your school,
in your neighborhood, even in your families.
And you can make a difference there.
And it absolutely matters on the same scale.
It really does. Because the breakdown of that,
the breakdown of us recognizing that we care for each other,
that we are in this together, is actually how we get
to a genocide where people are saying,
That's not my problem, that's not my fault,
that has nothing to do with me.
It's the breakdown of what happens in our neighborhoods --
-Yeah. --- in our towns.
And I've noticed that, you know, it's connected community
that comes together and says, This matters.
It's connected community that's going out to protest,
because it's easier then to see how connected you are.
And it's easier to keep yourself
going because you know you're with community.
-Yeah, and it's connected community
that feeds each other and houses each other.
-Exactly.
-Intervenes when there are interpersonal issues.
I think about Mariame Kaba's quote that collective care
is the antidote to violence.
And that it's not about necessarily
how big the scale of changes any individual makes;
it is about are we connected to each other,
all actively engaging in the world
that we want to live in,
even if it's not present right now.
-Right.
-And there's something really beautiful about that
at the end of the day that takes the pressure off the individual.
It's not just me, it's not just you.
It's everyone in this room,
everyone that's not in this room,
everyone that is in another room doing,
you know, my little sphere of influence right here.
-Right. And it matters, and we know it matters
because it's the one thing
that the powers that be are terrified of.
Like, we forget that even international politics
has an individual aspect that has to --
it has to be sold to us.
Either ignorance has to be sold to us,
hatred has to be sold to us,
fear has to be sold to us in order for it to work.
And that's all done on an interpersonal level, right?
That's all messaging given to us
that we're told to give to others.
And us handing truth to each other,
staying connected to each other, recognizing the voices of people
who actually do have our best interests at heart
because we know them because they're in community with us,
versus those who are pretending to.
All of that is a real threat to the powers that be
because they can't approximate that.
They can't fake that.
And that's why things like our social media posts
are being challenged and watched
and people are being kicked out for that.
That's why we're trying to fire people for having --
for saying they don't want a genocide.
Because it's not because that's absurd,
it's because they actually know it's not.
And saying that very basic truth,
that genocide is bad, is a real threat
to all of this effort that's being put out there.
And so I think it's easy to forget
that every single national and international harm
that we see actually starts
and is in these very local ways, in these very individual ways,
where they have to tell us a story
and get us to believe it in order to be able to do it.
None of this works without us.
And so recognizing that we actually have that power
ourselves to counter that, and it is more authentic,
and it is actually easier for us to build,
when we can do that healing work of reconnecting with each other
is really, really important.
-You know, that makes me think a lot about, like,
in our space at Creative Justice,
our goal is how do we not create narratives
that are not the ones young people choose for themselves?
And the liberation you feel when you have freedom from fear,
freedom from shame, freedom from guilt,
to get to try to pursue who it is that you want to be,
or to take time to get to know yourself.
Because for so many young people,
they don't have time, space to, I don't know, just sit and be,
and make art and be connected to other people.
And so switching gears a little bit,
something I was wondering when I was thinking
about this conversation was,
I was like, how did Ijeoma get to be this incredible author?
Like, there is someone that existed
before we knew you as who you are now.
How did you arrive at this place?
-You know, I think part of it for me is it was really --
it was organic in a way and weird.
I mean, little kid me wanted to be a writer
more than anything in the world, absolutely.
I read, even before I could read,
I would just hold books and blabber nonsense.
And my mom has all of my, like, first grade stories
that I would write, you know, laminated and saved.
And then by the time I was, like, in fifth grade,
the thought of being a writer was gone
because I was a Black girl in a really, really poor family.
And I was the oldest child
and I was going to get a job that paid bills.
I wasn't going to be a creative.
-Because writing -- -Writing doesn't pay bills.
And, you know, I am fortunate enough now that it does.
But don't get into writing if you want to be rich.
Like -- wait, what? New York Times bestseller? Not rich?
But, you know, yeah, It's an industry.
Like, you know, ask someone you know,
Did you get into music to be rich
and then look at those record contracts and you'll see.
Books are really similar, in fact,
as far as how percentages and everything work.
But I loved writing, and I put it aside
and, you know, I didn't start writing
professionally until I was in my 30s.
-Really? -Yeah. Yeah.
-So I still got hope? -Yeah.
Oh, look, I wasn't, you know, you brought it up,
so that -- this is your fault.
Because I wasn't going to say I need a book from you,
I want a book from you, because I hate it when people,
like, publicly pressure people into things.
But you put it out here in the world and I'll say --
-I did.
--- that every time I hear you speak,
the amount of beauty in your words, the way that you can --
you just shoot that arrow right into the heart of the topic.
It is -- it changes people and I want a book from you.
I want anything written from you.
I want a restaurant menu written by you.
I want anything. -I got you.
Will you settle for a coffee menu?
There's one right up the street at Washington Hall.
The Creative Cafe. No, I appreciate that.
-But, and you know,
and we will talk at any time that you want to,
but if you want any support around that,
absolutely, like, anything I can do to make that happen
because the world would be a better place,
if it's right for you and when it's right for you.
So I'm just putting that out there now.
-I'm putting it in my back pocket right now.
-Yes, because it's 100% sincerity, I mean this.
I was just thinking about that when we were in Olympia
and I was listening to you talk and I was like,
I just want to dive into this deeper.
I want to be able to thumb through these words.
And so for me, though, writing was a real, lie, a necessity.
It was Trayvon Martin was murdered.
And I thought I was going to go crazy,
and I'm not exaggerating.
Like, I really thought living in the Pacific Northwest,
this collective gaslighting of a place that was, like,
Oh, this is sad.
Aren't you glad you don't live in Florida, you know?
And it's just like --
-And you're like, Well, we live here.
-Yeah, yeah. -And you spoke here.
-Exactly, and it was just -- it was killing me, you know?
And I was trying to find a way to discuss it,
and so that's where my writing started.
And then people started responding to it.
And it was really funny because I had no idea
what I was doing, you know?
And so I started, like, making charts.
I would write a post. People would say, I like this.
And they would say what, you know, they liked about it
and I would like write it down in a chart
to try to figure out what my voice was.
Because I had no idea. I had never, you know,
I hadn't been in classes that were like this
is your voice, this is a particular style.
I was writing the way I talked to people.
And so then I was just trying to figure out
what is it about this that's appealing,
because people would be like, I really like that.
I'm like, Really? What -- what exactly, what sentence?
Was it this, was it this part? I tried to figure it out
and I was literally keeping, like, a diagram for a long time.
-I want to see this diagram now.
I'm, like, imagining it on your wall.
-It just like, you know, it was a very specific,
like, neurodiverse,
how do people work type thing that I did.
And it actually, you know,
helped me kind of understand what it was,
because there is a lot of that feeling of like,
Do I have the right to be here?
I don't have a journalism or English degree.
You know, people are saying, you know, what are you doing?
And recognizing the uniqueness of my voice
and what it was that was appealing to people.
And then, you know, making my own personal rules for myself
about how I wanted to be heard,
what impact I wanted to have really helped.
And just trying to learn, like, I really, like,
approached writing of, like, I don't know what I'm doing,
I think I have a natural talent in here obviously,
because I don't know what I'm doing
and yet people are responding.
-Yeah.
-And so how can I honor that and nurture that
and grow that in a way that serves?
And so finding my own space and getting confidence in that,
luckily I was able to figure out
that part of what people responded to
was that I was authentic, I was myself,
because I didn't actually have all these things.
And so that was something I've guarded.
That's something I've guarded really, really
-- you know, if I get edits back for an article
and it doesn't sound like me, like, we're going to argue
or I'm going to pull the piece. -Yeah.
-Like, that's been the rule I've had my whole career.
And so yeah, that's, you know, where that kind of started
and I was writing and writing and writing
while also working a really awful job.
-What was it, can I ask?
-Yeah, I was working marketing for the auto industry
and not even, like, a cool --
I don't know if there is a cool --
I don't cool brand that's not a cool brand.
And so I was helping to sell trucks.
-Totally. -Yeah, it was great.
It was a great use of my skills as a creative person.
So a little side story that has nothing to do with this.
This is the type of place I worked in.
So one day I walked in, I was the only
Black woman in my, in the whole building.
-This story has already started out like a horror movie.
-I'm the only woman in my entire department.
And I had been gone a couple of days,
because I had started writing on the side and they didn't know,
because none of them would read, like, the Times or MSNBC.
And I would literally go on MSNBC.
I would say I'm working from home, fly to New York,
like, go on MSNBC, fly home. No one knew.
-Oh, that's a grind. -No one was watching it.
And I had been gone a couple days.
I came back and we were working in this like...
We'd run out of space.
We were, like, in this portable trailer.
So it was a small space and it was me and three guys.
And I walk in and I can't get into my desk
because there's these giant golf umbrellas,
like, the big, you know -- -At your desk?
--- six footers on the floor.
Two of them taking up the whole floor.
And I'm like, Guys, what's happening here?
And one guy's like, It's his fault!
And he points to this other guy.
And he's like, I didn't know! I didn't know!
And I'm like, what? It's happening.
Why can't I get to my desk? And he's like, I didn't know
you're not supposed to open them indoors, it's bad luck.
And I'm like, okay, so when did this happen?
And they're like, Two days ago. And I'm like, what?
And so I like walk up and I pick up
the umbrellas and they're like,
What? And I close them and they're like,
She's not afraid of anything. And I'm like,
I'm afraid of a lot of things, not these umbrellas.
And I folded them up,
worked the rest of my day selling trucks.
Went on Facebook, friends only, complained, like y'all
won't even believe this. And one of my friends was like,
Ijeoma, you have to quit that job.
-Yes.
-And it was, like, a week later that I quit that job.
And I didn't know what I was going to do.
I was just writing more and I was actually,
you know, just being honest in the space.
And then I had this other space for 10 hours a day
where it was just surrounded by these guys.
And -- -The umbrella guys.
And I was going to get fired if I didn't quit.
So I quit and I had no savings, no plan.
And almost lost my house, absolutely lost my car.
-Oh my gosh.
-Right away, because when you're writing essays
and you're starting out, like, we're talking $100 an essay.
-If that.
Like, so many essays.
-They're like, We'll buy you dinner.
-Yeah, exactly, and it's like, Oh, cool, I have a mortgage.
You know, so -- and then I just -- but I was --
so then I'm writing everywhere, right?
So it's building a career because people are like,
Oh, we're seeing you everywhere. I'm like, Well, you better,
because I have to -- I have to pay these bills.
And then I got my book deal. And so when I got my book deal,
first thing you want to talk about race
and my little modest advance,
I paid four months of back mortgage, saved my house,
and then bought a cheap, little used Honda
so that we could drive again.
And the rest is history and, like, built from there.
But it was a real leap.
Like, it was a real -- I don't know.
And it was, you know, for someone who was raised,
you know, as a Black woman to always put everyone else
first, like, it felt like the most selfish
and yet inescapable thing in the world for me to be,
like, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to write.
And I can't be in this space anymore.
But it was one of the absolute best decisions I've ever made
and I always remember that because I think
of how every time I'm interviewing people
and I'm asking them about the work they do,
so often the work they're doing is dictated by circumstance
and not by their passion.
Not by -- even by their greatest talents and what drives them.
And I think about how many Black people in this world especially.
Like, what we could do if we were able to.
And I'm so glad that that leap paid off,
because, you know, I think I'm much better suited
to this work than selling trucks.
-I don't know, I would've bought a truck from you.
I just want to say that's a beautiful place for us
to transition to some audience Q&A.
The thing that sticks with me most from that story
you just shared, one, the end. Like, just imagine a world
where people get to exist in their gifts
and their talents and their passions,
and just, like, how different the world would be.
But also you saying
that when you would be sent back your article
and it wasn't in your voice, that you would push back.
And I feel like I see that in how you engage the world,
that if you are not being able to be engaged authentically,
you push back. And that inspires me.
I know it inspires so many other people.
And thank you for the ways in which you live authentically,
because it empowers the rest of us to do the same.
-Thank you. Thank you.
-So, we don't have a lot of time for audience
Q&A, so keep it a question, you feel me?
But we're going to open up the floor with a show of hands
if you have a question.
-So, I don't actually have a question.
I read "So You Want to Talk About Race"
and I just wanted to thank you for writing that
because it gave me language to kind of grapple with the topic
and have conversations about that --
about something so crucial. So, thank you for writing that.
-Thank you. Thank you so much.
-All right, I'll let that one slide.
Thank you for the love.
-Thank you. Thank you for all that you do.
I was wondering, like, so I work in social services
and I always feel like any aspect
where you work with people is exhausting.
Can revolutionary work be exhausting at some point?
Like, either working
for, against, around people, you know?
-Absolutely. And I think that that --
part of that is something that we actually need to address,
which is, you know,
this idea that we are all to be monitored to this work
is a white supremacist idea in itself, right?
That this system that we're already disempowered in,
that white people can learn about us,
read about us, clap for us,
and then we're the ones dying to do the work
and tearing ourselves apart for it,
is inherently white supremacist. And it devalues our healing.
And that's the one aspect that, like,
other people can't do for us.
You know, there's a lot of work that, like, white people
and people with different privileges
can be doing right now and should be doing,
but they actually can't heal us.
And part of what can be really, really hard,
and I think you'll recognize this deeply as well,
is we are traumatized people doing work
that keeps us steeped directly in that trauma.
-Yep.
-And that's really tough, and it's tough personally,
but it also means, like, it's tough socially.
And for many years, like, my personal solution
was to isolate myself a lot.
And it worked in the sense that people were like,
Wow, I never see your name in drama.
And I'm like, That's because you never see me.
But there's that aspect of community connection
and accountability that you can't just,
you know, you can't do it all without that connection.
And so learning about that as I get older and saying,
Okay, you know, we have to find ways to prioritize healing.
And that means I personally have to model that as well,
right, in my work.
And so part of, like, that's really important,
I think is for those of us doing this work,
especially if we're doing it visibly,
and people, whether that's, you know,
a room watching you or a world watching you,
is to be whole people in the spaces we're in.
And that's something I'm trying so hard
to try to do and cling to,
and that's why you're always going to see, like,
my makeup posts, you're going to see my goofy posts.
You're going to hear about all this stuff,
because I need people to understand
that you have to be a whole person in this work.
And so, yeah, that's really hard,
and prioritizing that can be so hard,
but we have to, have to, have to do it.
And in fact, I would say it's not only important
because it keeps us doing this work,
but it actually sends a strong message
about our value to the world
and the systems that we are of such value
that even while we're doing this work,
we know that we deserve care and we deserve to try to thrive.
-And if I could just add one thing,
I think there's encouraging each other to be whole people.
Like, that's what I love about my friendship with Gabriel is,
you know, I'm sitting here like, Oh, I'm trying to make music.
I've got to run this organization and raise money.
He's like, Here's a beat, write something.
And, you know, there is the aspect
that it is our individual healing.
And there's also the ways in which we say to each other,
actually, fam, like, you could take a day
and make some music
and have some joy in your life and be a whole person.
And, like, literally the work is going to be there tomorrow.
Like, you're not going to abolish the police today.
-Right. -You know, right.
Right, and then I tell you being --
being married to Gabriel is the --
it's that, yeah, he's very good at, like,
pulling your away sometimes, like, come be a person.
Which I deeply appreciate.
-Hi. Right behind me.
-Oh, hi.
-So, it really resonated with me
when you were talking about, like, kind of being on the brink
of feeling like you're going to lose it.
I've worked in nonprofits for the past 13-ish years,
and I'm kind of in this place right now
where there's a lot of well- intentioned people around me
that are worried about how much I'm worried about.
And, like, Well, do something about it.
And so my question is,
What would you say or do with people who are worried
about how much you're worried about,
but not necessarily being active,
or people who are actively engaging in lateral violence
because they don't see the interconnectedness
of our struggles?
-Right, yeah. I'll say first of all,
that absolutely sounds like working at a non-profit.
Especially, like, as, like, as BIPOCs,
especially for Black people, like, the way in which people
kind of fetishize how much deeper it hits you.
And that it isn't this kind of eat, pray,
love journey that you're on.
And I feel that, and that's real.
And I would say for me personally,
I think, like, what's really been vital for me
is to be clear about the rules of engagement with me.
Of, like, that what a relationship is.
I think that we are often so conditioned
to carry all of the burden of everything
that doesn't fit in our relationships --
work relationships, personal relationships,
where it's like, Oh, you don't get that,
so I'm going to carry the burden of what you don't get.
Oh, you're not really in here with me,
so I'm going to try harder
to make up for the fact that you don't really feel
like you have any skin in this game. You know,
Oh, you're going to get all the pleasure from this,
and I'm not, because I'm still working,
but I'm going to keep pushing through.
And for me, being up front from the beginning and saying, like,
Oh, working with me, being in relationship with me,
even in this professional capacity, means this.
And if you want the benefit of my presence,
if you want to look good on your brochures
by having it look diverse and all of that stuff,
if you want to be able to turn to someone
with lived expertise in this, that the cost is this.
-Yeah.
-The cost is you show up in this way.
The cost is you dedicate some time to your own learning.
The cost is that you believe me when I say
that this is an issue and you don't actually --
it doesn't actually have to compute with you
for it to be valid. And talking about --
and this is what we'll do when it isn't working.
You know, a lot of what I try to do with that is I find --
and this is something I talked about a bit in my book,
you know, the war on imagination is real.
And I think that we have a better idea
of what relationships look like outside of the status quo,
because a lot of our relationships
have to be outside of the status quo.
And it's important to remember that even, like,
so often white people
who envision themselves the most revolutionary
have no concept of relationship outside of the status quo.
And that deeply impacts movement work.
And one thing that I try to do as a generosity
is offer that vision. And so taking time and saying,
If this worked the way I needed it to be,
if I showed up every day, seen, heard,
in a truly intersectional space,
a truly caring space, what would it look like?
How would everyone act and offer that?
Because I think it's hard to remember how little people
who've never had to actually work outside of systems
know about how to build outside of systems.
And so saying, This is the vision I have,
and this is the space I see that you could be in,
can you see it with me?
Sometimes that alone can make a huge shift,
because people just didn't envision it.
And then that fear comes in, right?
Because there's that fear of, you're angry, you're upset,
and I'm not going to fix it and I might make it worse.
So what if I proactively acted to rid myself of this?
You know, what if I weaponized this?
What if I got preemptively angry at you
because I already feel my failure in this?
All of these things that we have to go
through over and over again,
and it's all simply just, like, lack of imagination,
lack of vision for what could be built.
And so that has been a thing for me
that I had to realize in my personal relationships
and my professional relationships,
is how often those who are,
quote unquote served by our systems,
are done a disservice by being told,
No need to imagine anything better than this. It's fine.
And then even people who recognize something's wrong
still work from this point of,
I couldn't come up with something better than this.
And that's how we end up
with these really stagnant movement spaces
and people who get really uncomfortable with people
who see more of it,
or, you know, have had to see outside of it.
So that's the advice I have to give.
-And for, like, some of our, you know,
thing about white folks in movement
and often them gravitating towards the status quo,
I hear that as transactionary. Like,
What can I get from you from what you give to me,
as opposed to, like, I don't know, like,
doing your work to expand that.
Or when someone is offering you the possibilities
of what a space could be like.
Instead of giving the 12 reasons why it couldn't be,
why not now spend your energy
in the many reasons why it could be.
That's why I love my staff at Creative Justice.
They don't have no problem telling me,
Actually, Nikkita, it could be this.
And I appreciate that.
So if you are a nonprofit administrator,
if you are a white person in movement
and you have folks offering you possibilities,
instead of engaging all the reasons
why that possibility can't exist,
your work is to challenge internally
and fight for the reasons why it could.
-Right. And recognize that you can grow.
Like, that's the thing, right?
Like, I think for those of us who grew up in areas like this,
who grew up surrounded by whiteness,
like, white people, you can't fool me.
I know what you're capable of. Like, I do.
And so this idea, like, that soul,
this pessimistic idea of, like,
this real fragility that's nurtured.
I mean, like, we literally have laws being passed in the country
so that white people don't have to feel uncomfortable
with history. This -- like, think about how --
think about how little you have to think of white people
to think that learning history would kill you.
That being uncomfortable for a day,
you would just fall apart.
Like, that is so deeply pessimistic.
It's so, like, I don't know, I've seen you do some things.
I have some white friends.
I have faith that people can grow and people can change
and people can be challenged.
And so recognizing that, like, that there's a core pessimism
when you hear an idea that challenges you
and you say it can't be done.
Like, that's a core pessimism you have about yourself
and the people you're working with that you need to challenge
if you're going to grow out of this.
Because you've been fed a story about your own limitations
when it comes to acknowledging harm,
growing past harm, healing, all of that.
-Yes.
Well, I want to thank you for just, like, sitting with us.
I love that I got to hear some personal stories.
Although if you follow Ijeoma online,
you will hear all the personal stories.
She's not playing on the authenticity.
And if you bought a book, get it signed.
If you didn't buy a book, buy a book.
And maybe buy two. Give one to someone.
This is an incredible opportunity
to get to read about the descriptive ways
other folks are changing the world,
being a revolution in of themselves.
And maybe you'll discover something for you
to be doing as well.
So thank you, y'all. We're going to have a book signing.
I think it's down here and you'll get instructions
from the wonderful Ebony.
-Yeah, thank you.
Give it up for Nikkita and Ijeoma.
Yes. Thank you guys for being here.
Thank you for this conversation. Standing ovation.
[ Applause ]