[ Upbeat music ]
-Hello, I'm your host, Brian Callanan.
A new report shows the number of people
who are living unhoused in King County is continuing to rise.
But for the new leader of the county's Regional Authority
on Homelessness, that's just one
of many challenges ahead.
The Regional Homelessness Authority's
latest Point-in-Time Count shows there are 26% more people
living unhoused in King County
than there were just two years ago.
-Everybody in the community is frustrated.
-That's not the news local leaders
or anyone want to hear.
But the KCRHA says,
under its current budget, it has fewer than half
the shelter beds needed to accommodate the thousands
who need help.
-The headline here is that we've got 2019 dollars
for a 2025 problem.
-Possible cuts to federal programs
could also affect the KCRHA.
Plus, locally, city bans on public camping
are creating obstacles for the Authority.
And all eyes are on this fall's election
to see how potential changes in city and county leadership
could affect the KCRHA's future.
-Homelessness is, at its core, a housing issue.
-How is the new leader of the Regional Authority
responding to a host of homelessness hurdles?
-So, I think we're still building trust.
-It's a one-on-one with Dr. Kelly Kinnison
of the KCRHA,
next on "City Inside/Out."
♪♪
Welcome, once again, to "City Inside/Out"
here on the Seattle Channel.
Brian Callanan here with you.
And I'm with the CEO
of the King County Regional Homelessness Authority,
Dr. Kelly Kinnison.
Kelly, thanks a lot for being here.
-Thanks, Brian. I'm happy to be here.
-Let's jump into it here.
You started this job back in August,
less than a year ago,
and the situation you came into was a bit unsettled, let me say.
There was a revolving door of CEOs, as you know.
The Authority made a lot of homeless service providers
unhappy with a series of late payments before you arrived.
And KCRHA shut down a major project in 2023,
Partnership for Zero,
to end visible homelessness downtown.
So, plenty of fires to put out, for sure.
I just wanted to ask about this.
What was it about this position that said to you,
this is the job for me?
-Yeah. My background is in human services
and bringing systems together to meet families and individuals
where they are.
And really doing that with equity at top of mind
and making sure that those systems have
equitable outcomes for families.
-You're working in D.C. before you were here, right?
-Yes. I was at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
-Thank you. Okay.
-And so getting the --
You know, I got the job description from a recruiter,
and I thought, "Wow.
If this -- couldn't be written any better
for what I would like to see in my career next,"
bringing all that federal policy experience
and getting back to the local level.
-Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's plenty to work with here,
as you know, and I just wanted to get into it.
I mentioned a few of those different challenges for KCRHA.
What was the most urgent need that you saw when it comes
to running this organization?
And what's been your approach to that?
-Oh, prioritizing the fires.
[ Laughs ]
-Yeah -I think really two things.
One is just stabilizing the organization.
The staff who had hung in were really working hard
to continue services, you know, to providers.
-Yeah.
-And we had a completely empty, you know,
senior sort of leadership and executive leadership team,
with just a few exceptions.
And so really, just getting back to mission
and getting everyone rowing in the same direction was critical.
And then I think listening.
You know, coming in from D.C.,
there was a lot of speculation about what I might be like
as a D.C. bureaucrat.
-Hmm, here we go.
-And I told a lot of my city and, you know,
municipal partners, like, "I'm a proud bureaucrat.
Like, I'm here to run an organization
that's responsible for, you know, over $200 million
of taxpayer money."
And there's things you have to do when you're working
with public funds.
And so, there's a little bit of a call to get back to basics
and then just listen to the community about what they want
KCRHA to be in our region.
-Thank you for that.
I want to talk about this recent Point-in-Time Count.
So, this is the count that's required by
the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, HUD,
to estimate how many people are experiencing homelessness
in King County.
You know these numbers, Kelly. They show that in 2024,
there were 16,868 people who were homeless,
compared to 13,368 from 2022, a 26% increase.
I want to go big picture first.
What do those numbers say to you?
-Well, first, I would set the stage by explaining
that KCRHA is the emergency response system.
So, once someone has come into the system,
found themselves unsheltered, that is where KCRHA
is responsible for providing services
within available resources.
-I see.
So, maybe a city team from Seattle would bring someone,
make a referral of some sort,
and you would handle the case from there.
-Correct. The funding that we provide to providers
is intended to support shelters, rapid rehousing, day centers,
and those sort of critical immediate supports,
while we're waiting to get someone into permanent housing.
-Thank you. -Yeah.
Unfortunately, we don't really have a lot of levers as KCRHA
with the inflow, and we don't have a lot of levers
with the outflow to housing.
So, we're really charged with -- you know,
our new mission is to reduce unsheltered homelessness
using those equity and social justice principles.
-Okay.
-And so there's a lot of working really carefully
with the communities and providers to make sure
that we are utilizing those resources as best we can.
And so we use that Point-in-Time Count data to understand
what is the inflow looking like,
what is the outflow looking like?
You know, the Point-in-Time Count is one night, a snapshot,
and it's, you know, nationally considered an undercount.
-Yes.
-But it gives us some sense of how we need to think about
how far our resources can go.
-When you look at that increase, though,
what was your reaction to that?
-It's really heartbreaking.
And, you know, it's a reflection of our policy choices.
We can look at spending on criminal justice,
on, you know, lots of other things.
And we have to make choices.
I'm not the person who makes that choice.
Of course, I advocate for homelessness services.
But we need more funds in the system,
and we need to ensure that the funds we have
are being used in the most effective way possible.
And that requires us to be really nimble.
It also requires addressing the huge disparity
in the homelessness data.
As I'm sure you saw... -Right.
...there are some groups, including indigenous peoples,
people of color, who are dramatically overrepresented
in the system.
And that really speaks to some changes that need to be made.
-Thank you. And I'm definitely going to talk about funding
with you in a minute.
But I do want to dig a little deeper on these numbers here.
I was struck by those disparities in --
the racial disparities you were talking about there.
And then also a disparity in the amount of resources available,
like shelter beds.
Looking in North King County, for example,
the amount of shelter beds is so low,
you have nearly ten people who are unsheltered
for every available bed.
Compare that out to the Snoqualmie Valley area,
where there are one and a half people
who are unsheltered for every available bed.
So overall, as I saw it, King County has fewer than half
the beds needed to try to accommodate everyone
who needs shelter.
I did want to ask you about that too.
What do those numbers say to you?
-It says to me that we really need to move
into system thinking as we make budget decisions,
as we, you know, decide where new shelter goes,
where services are deployed.
Historically, we've had a very sort of programmatic view.
So, do programs work? -I see. Okay.
-Who's getting funding? How many do we have?
-Looking more system wide then. Okay.
-Right. We need to come up a level.
And this is what the community has been sharing with me,
with great gusto.
We need to make sure these are all working together,
and we're not overlapping, duplicating services,
we're supporting providers and their workforce,
and really getting resources where they need to be.
-Got it. And you're going down a path.
I would like to keep going with you here.
Because KCRHA has relaunched its System Performance dashboard
to give the public a better look at how KCRHA's programs
are performing overall.
I don't know how to break apart these numbers,
but I did see overall,
when I look at that first part of the website,
60% of your programs are helping people to be permanently housed.
That sounds great.
Of course, I'm worried about the other 40%.
I know you are too.
How do you interpret those numbers?
If you could answer me that.
And why was it important to you to relaunch this
public-facing dashboard?
-Data is really at the center of how KCRHA is moving forward,
so that we are using data-informed decision making,
using data on inequities and system performance
to make sure we are not just talking about equity,
but moving in the direction of changing the system.
The other thing that's been made really clear to me
recently by my research and data team
is, you know, a lot of smaller Continuums of Care,
which are the organizing body for a lot
of homelessness services across the country,
rely on data that HUD posts.
And with changes to administrations,
taking down information, it's really important
to a region like King County
that we have our own system dashboard
that folks can go and use it and pull numbers
and understand what homelessness is looking like today.
We'd like to get to monthly updates of those
and really focus on making them as usable as possible.
-Yeah. And I do want to talk about that federal funding piece
and what's happening there.
Because I saw a report recently in The Seattle Times
that shows King County is preemptively suing
the Trump administration, along with some other jurisdictions,
over potential cuts in homeless grants.
If you could focus on the federal side of this first,
what's going on, Kelly?
-Yeah. We have about $23 million
that typically comes to KCRHA from HUD
that supports our Continuum of Care work,
which is a collection of projects that go through
an application process and get awarded by HUD.
We administer many of those.
King County administers all of the permanent
supportive housing. -I see. Okay.
-So, it's about a $60 million investment
in permanent supportive housing.
$23 million in King County funds.
And then there's a couple of sort of legacy projects
that have been funded for decades.
-Okay.
-So, the concern that we have is the contract language
asks us to do additional sort of verification
and other kinds of attestations
that we will not support things like -- "gender ideology"
is the language that we --
-This whole uproar over DEI
that the Trump administration has been talking about.
-Yes. And I think specifically targeting
trans individuals and sort of how we talk about, you know,
gender identity, sexual orientation,
and those things in our programs to make them more inclusive,
more welcoming.
It's really important that people know that
they are safe when they're getting services.
And so, it's a real concern that programs might be asked
not to speak to folks who, you know, really need to know
that they're safe when they're in human services programs.
The other thing is around immigration status.
So, using a system that is, to the best of our knowledge,
not really functioning right now
to verify immigration status and eligibility for programs.
And we just have really deep concerns about using
those kinds of levers to impede emergency services to anyone.
-Right.
And I hate to ask this question, but what if,
what happens if those cuts actually went through?
-It's a real scenario that we're talking about
with our partners, our funders, providers.
We are going to do our best to make the decisions
that have the least -- do the least damage to the community.
I think there are ways that we can...
work around some of the problematic pieces.
But in the end, if that money goes away this year
or next year, it's going to leave a really big hole
in our system.
-Let me move it down a level, if I could,
talk about the state and local level.
Because you've got the State Department of Commerce
making up 10% of your budget, King County 26%,
City of Seattle 53%.
All those local governments are going through
their own serious budget upheavals.
Are there concerns about that state and local funding piece?
What can you tell me about that?
-Yes.
I mean, as of the end of the session,
things are looking better than we had initially started...
-State legislative session? -Yes, yes. Thank you.
...started preparing for.
But we also know, as you said,
the local budgets are really tight.
The forecasts are not looking good.
-"Pessimistic" is the word I hear...
-Yes. -...from Seattle quite a bit.
-Yes. That's right.
And so we're in conversation with folks about the choices
that they're going to need to make.
You know, of course, advocating.
At this point, I think this year or next year,
it's really about keeping existing resources online
and really supporting that sort of facility-based services.
So, our shelters, our day centers,
places where people know they can come.
We don't want to see losses in the system.
And I think if we can kind of mitigate losses,
that's really our win for this year and next year
in terms of impacts.
-I need to ask this one too.
County Councilmember Teresa Mosqueda
brought up at a meeting in April,
maybe KCRHA needs to have its own taxing authority.
I know that's a bit of a reach here.
Is that something that you would support or think about?
-Yeah, I'd love to work with the King County Council
and anyone else who has ideas.
-They would have to make the call
on something like that. -Absolutely.
I know that was contemplated as the agency was being formed.
Of course, I wasn't here then.
-Yes. Right, right.
-But would love to dig back into that.
We're in a very different environment now
than we were in 2018, 2019,
when those conversations were happening.
And so, I think it's worth a look, always.
Are we doing this the best way possible?
Do we need to iterate?
-Alright. Thank you very much for that.
I did want to talk about this idea of trying to involve
more cities in supporting the KCRHA.
Because King County and Seattle make up
more than three quarters of your budget.
I just mentioned that.
The interlocal agreement with smaller cities
in North King County makes up only 1%.
I just have to ask it -- If the idea is to approach
this issue regionally, which I know
is very important here, do you think you need
more cities to put more skin in the game?
How do you approach that?
-Yeah and we're having a really robust conversation
with the board and with our partners about regionalism.
What does that mean in a region like King County,
where you've got really different contexts
where the issue is playing out?
And, Brian, my take is that regionalism doesn't mean
one size fits all.
It doesn't necessarily mean we need uniform policies
that everyone needs to adopt.
I think we need to think of it as a cohesive system.
I think we need to think of it as,
that investment doesn't necessarily mean dollars.
Investment can mean coming to the table, sharing.
There's a lot of great things going on in our region.
Sharing those lessons.
-Programs that are working, et cetera.
-Exactly. Yeah.
And a lot of that, just there hasn't been a body
that has been able to facilitate that learning.
And I think my philosophy is,
attraction rather than promotion.
So, if we become an organization that has value to offer,
then cities will say, "Yeah.
I'd rather not administer
my own severe weather funding procurement.
KCRHA has been doing this." Like, you know,
"Let's partner and really make sure that service providers
and county officials and city officials across the region
are spending their time on what they uniquely do best.
-A thorny question for you here.
When you see cities like Burien or Auburn
passing bans on camping, which I know can have
a major impact on people sleeping without shelter,
how do you respond to that?
Are you able to talk with those cities?
What's going on with that whole camping ban issue?
-Yeah. So, I think we're still building trust
as a new KCRHA that is, you know,
a public organization that brings research and data
to these questions and then talks about likely impacts,
has analysis, and we'll work with everyone
who is interested in working on this issue.
We are not an advocacy organization.
We, I think, are here to partner with folks, meet them --
meet communities where they are.
This is a community issue, and I really believe
that community voices of all kinds need to inform
the solutions in those communities.
And so, yeah, I will work with anyone.
I think we can share --
-You're talking with these different cities?
-Absolutely. Yes.
You know, the Mayor of Auburn, Nancy Backus,
has become a good mentor of mine and is on our governing board.
So, know a lot about what's happening in Auburn.
And, you know, they've got a solution right now
that they feel is working for their community.
I think that's really important.
And it's important that we have data,
and think about, is this working?
Who is it impacting?
You know, are there disparities emerging?
We can address those. Right?
We just have to be really open about, how is this working?
What's going next?
-Thank you. Another city question here,
and this is a tough one too.
The number of homeless encampment sweeps has steadily risen
under the Harrell administration here in Seattle.
Seattle Times reporting on this -- In the past two years,
the city has taken down more than 8,000 tents,
breaking all previous records in recent history here.
Do you believe these sweeps are effective?
How is this impacting your work?
I wanted to ask that too.
-Yeah. I mean, my sense is that the Mayor and
the Unified Care Team have been really clear
about what they are there to do
and what they can and cannot accomplish.
They are there to enhance public safety.
They're there to ensure that public space is usable
by everyone in the community.
And I think that creates a real tension,
because our unhoused neighbors are part of the community,
as well.
And there are certainly areas, blocks, where those communities,
those neighbors, those citizens are bearing the brunt
of encampments, tents,
and some of the things that, you know...
You know, folks prey on those who are unhoused.
We see more drug activity sometimes.
And so I think it's important that city leaders
can make those decisions
and use available data and resources about best practices.
We know a lot about what moving people around does,
and there are ways --
-Is it hurting your work? How do you look at that?
-No. I think of it as synergistic.
I mean, we --
you know, we don't have outreach contracts for the city.
Those went back before...
-Yeah. Those are city controlled. That's right.
-Yes. That's right.
So, it's important to us, then, to help --
you know, the hand-off point is at when folks are referred
to the shelter.
So, how do we continue to work together to make sure
that we're not letting anyone fall between the cracks,
if at all possible?
-Thanks. I did want to talk about
something that's been going on over the last several years --
local elected leaders really pushing the KCRHA
to ask for rebids on the contracts you have
with service providers.
I know there's a big concern over funding.
Is it time for these rebids to happen?
What's your message to service providers
who work with the KCRHA?
-My message is, we've got a lot of, I think,
what feels like shake-ups happening in our system.
And KCRHA does not want to contribute
to any sort of feeling of additional instability,
additional risk to clients.
What rebid is to me -- we call it Not Rebid internally,
because we don't have a better name for it. [ Laughs ]
-Okay. Alright. Alright. We're working on it. Okay.
-But Not Rebid is really about a mutual accountability
in the contracting process.
So, KCRHA has not had a lot of what we need
to effectively administer contracts.
And we're working -- that's been my focus
in the past nine months.
We've done a lot.
We've launched a new grant management system,
really increased service for providers.
And then we can be clearer about what we need to have
from providers to assess performance
and really build that system out.
And it's just normal in a contracting environment
that every few years you, you know, do a new request
for proposals and you evaluate the contract performance.
And so, I see it as more getting to like best practice,
good government business, and less is like a big shake-up,
which I think is sort of how it has been framed in the past.
-Thank you for answering that.
I did want to talk about, when the KCRHA was formed in 2019,
there was a real focus on including a lot of people
with the lived experience of homelessness
in terms of its governance.
Last fall, KCRHA changed its governance structure,
getting rid of the implementation board
and just going with a governance board made up
of mainly elected leaders from around the region.
Talk to me about this change.
And are you concerned that KCRHA's board has fewer people
with lived experience now?
-My goal is to have people with lived experience
involved in all of our work.
I think it's great that we have the three wonderful experts
with lived experience on our board.
I think the board is incorporating those experts
in a different way, as well, which we'll see if, you know,
that is adding to what they are able to bring and share with me,
as the CEO, and our agency in terms of policy setting
and direction.
I really admire the board for iterating until it makes sense
and until it's working.
That's how I lead the agency.
We have a Continuum of Care Board
that oversees all of our work that's HUD funded.
That is made up of a large number of folks
with lived experience, as well as other experts.
They are an advisory board to the governing board.
And so I think what the Continuum of Care Board
and I would like to see is just a more synergistic relationship
between our board, governing KCRHA,
the board that governs the HUD work,
and then our community outreach.
A number of KCRHA staff -- my guess is around 40% --
also have lived experience.
So it's really a field where folks want to get involved,
want to change the system once they've had system involvement.
They have so much to bring.
And we would be, you know, kind of crazy not to
make sure their seat at the table is centered.
-Thank you.
I wanted to talk about an existential issue with you,
if I could.
With regard to ending homelessness,
there have been committees to end homelessness in King County.
The city and the county had an emergency declared
when it came to homelessness a few years ago.
Do you believe it's possible to end homelessness?
-Absolutely. Yeah.
It takes a lot of folks.
I think, you know, at least once a day,
I read that KCRHA is the entity responsible
for ending homelessness.
And I think, "Oh, wow."
That would be a really big thing for one agency to do, right?
Many agencies, communities, funders are involved,
and it's about policy choices.
I mean, we have decades and decades of research on what works.
We do need to tailor that to individual communities,
to our funding environment.
But we need to come together as a system
and sort of stay the course to really see those impacts.
-Thank you.
I did want to start wrapping up with you here, if I could.
Because it seems like the role of the KCRHA
has changed over the past few years.
It was a little bit more of an aspirational voice, I think,
on homelessness issues when it started in 2019,
and now it's more of this agency that's making sure the dollars
are flowing and the network is working with funders
and providers here.
What sort of future do you see for this agency?
Especially in light of the fact that
we will have a new county executive this fall,
possibly a new mayor of Seattle
by the time this fall rolls around.
Some thoughts there to wrap up.
-Yeah. I mean, I think it was really forward looking
to try to establish an entity that transcends administrations.
As a federal employee,
I worked for four different administrations,
and so I know exactly what that takes.
And it takes a transparent decision-making process.
It takes relying on research and data
to make policy recommendations.
And then understanding that policy decisions involve
a lot more than just research and data.
They involve communities and policymakers who are elected.
And so, I see KCRHA's role long term
as being that place where you can come for the data,
for recommendations, for analysis,
bringing people together, administering that system
so that we all know what's happening
and we can be transparent with our communities, our taxpayers.
But that, as we change elected leaders,
we're ready to step up, work with them for their vision
for their communities.
-Alright. Thank you very much for that.
And we will be right back.
What are people saying on social media
about our response to homelessness?
One person writes...
Another person comments...
We'd like to know what you think.
Send us an email at contact@seattlechannel.org,
or find us on social media.
Very good to have that input and great to visit with you,
Dr. Kelly Kinnison,
CEO of the King County Regional Homelessness Authority.
Really thank you for being here.
-Thank you, Brian.
And we will see you next time on "City Inside/Out."
♪♪