1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,580
♪ Book Lust theme song ♪

2
00:00:19,419 --> 00:00:21,988
-Hello and welcome to Book Lust.

3
00:00:21,988 --> 00:00:23,423
I'm Nancy Pearl.

4
00:00:23,423 --> 00:00:26,893
My guest today is someone that
I've been looking forward to

5
00:00:26,893 --> 00:00:30,497
talking to for a long time,
Susan Wiggs, and we're going

6
00:00:30,497 --> 00:00:34,267
to be talking about her brand
new book, “Wayward Girls.”

7
00:00:34,267 --> 00:00:37,537
Susan, thank you so much
for joining me on the show.

8
00:00:37,537 --> 00:00:38,204
-Nancy, thank you.

9
00:00:38,204 --> 00:00:42,642
This is a really special
moment for me because I am a

10
00:00:42,642 --> 00:00:45,078
Book Lust fan from way back.

11
00:00:45,078 --> 00:00:48,114
It's been many, I've
listened to many episodes.

12
00:00:48,114 --> 00:00:50,450
So thank you so
much for having me.

13
00:00:50,450 --> 00:00:52,852
Well, I'm glad we
could make it work

14
00:00:52,852 --> 00:00:56,156
because I just thought
your book, “Wayward Girls,”

15
00:00:56,156 --> 00:00:58,591
is so fascinating.

16
00:00:58,591 --> 00:01:02,128
And I want to know, I
want you to give the

17
00:01:02,128 --> 00:01:07,133
elevator pitch for the book,
but, you know, expand on it

18
00:01:07,133 --> 00:01:10,437
and tell us how you
decided to write it.

19
00:01:10,437 --> 00:01:14,941
-Okay, the elevator pitch
is is six girls in 1968

20
00:01:14,941 --> 00:01:20,513
in Buffalo, New York, find
themselves incarcerated

21
00:01:20,513 --> 00:01:24,617
in a Catholic-run, brutal
reform school that

22
00:01:24,617 --> 00:01:26,719
is based on true events.

23
00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:31,724
And it's their journey
from being, you know,

24
00:01:31,724 --> 00:01:36,429
teenagers in this awful
system to finding justice,

25
00:01:36,429 --> 00:01:38,298
you know, crawling
through, you know,

26
00:01:38,298 --> 00:01:41,701
all of the ins and outs
and ultimately finding

27
00:01:41,701 --> 00:01:43,103
justice in the end.

28
00:01:43,103 --> 00:01:45,071
And it's not a typical book

29
00:01:45,071 --> 00:01:47,841
that I would write, but
I came to writing it

30
00:01:47,841 --> 00:01:51,177
through, yeah, usually I'm
the beach book writer,

31
00:01:51,177 --> 00:01:55,281
you know, the feel good,
you know, emotional hit

32
00:01:55,281 --> 00:01:57,217
of, you know, romance.

33
00:01:57,217 --> 00:02:01,488
And so this one was a bit of
a turn for me and it came

34
00:02:01,488 --> 00:02:05,258
about kind of organically
out of my life.

35
00:02:05,258 --> 00:02:08,194
I grew up in western
New York until I was 10

36
00:02:08,194 --> 00:02:10,663
years old and then after
10 years old we moved

37
00:02:10,663 --> 00:02:14,067
overseas and I never went
back and then in 2020 I

38
00:02:14,067 --> 00:02:18,171
went back with my brother
who was he was he had

39
00:02:18,171 --> 00:02:22,108
pancreatic cancer so we all
all know where that was

40
00:02:22,108 --> 00:02:23,843
going, but he was doing okay.

41
00:02:23,843 --> 00:02:26,379
And so we kind of made
this nostalgia visit

42
00:02:26,379 --> 00:02:28,648
back to this hometown.

43
00:02:28,648 --> 00:02:32,819
And we had a moment that
I bet a lot of people

44
00:02:32,819 --> 00:02:37,223
have experienced where we
stepped into our childhood

45
00:02:37,223 --> 00:02:41,094
Catholic church, and it was a
big Gothic one, a big stone pile

46
00:02:41,094 --> 00:02:44,697
in this little town
in western New York.

47
00:02:44,697 --> 00:02:47,800
And there was some kind
of quality of the air

48
00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,471
and the echoes and the sounds
and the smells in there

49
00:02:51,471 --> 00:02:54,474
that brought back a
flood of memories.

50
00:02:54,474 --> 00:02:58,278
And it was just one
of those moments

51
00:02:58,278 --> 00:03:01,281
where there are things that
are, it reminds you there are

52
00:03:01,281 --> 00:03:02,815
things buried inside everybody

53
00:03:03,917 --> 00:03:06,953
that are just sort of
waiting their turn

54
00:03:06,953 --> 00:03:08,988
or maybe you'll never
think of them again.

55
00:03:08,988 --> 00:03:11,624
But I remember I turned to John,
he's two years older than me.

56
00:03:11,624 --> 00:03:15,995
And I said, “Did you used
to be an altar boy here?”

57
00:03:15,995 --> 00:03:18,932
And he said, “Yeah, one
time I had one chance,

58
00:03:18,932 --> 00:03:23,036
before we moved” And he
got to be the thurifer.

59
00:03:23,036 --> 00:03:26,272
And that's the kid who
swings the incense ball

60
00:03:26,272 --> 00:03:30,143
in front of the
processional at high mass.

61
00:03:30,143 --> 00:03:32,679
And he said, “I only
got to do it once

62
00:03:32,679 --> 00:03:35,215
because I caught my sleeve
on fire with the coals.”

63
00:03:36,849 --> 00:03:38,051
[laughter]
I know.

64
00:03:38,051 --> 00:03:41,654
And so for some reason
that stuck with me

65
00:03:41,654 --> 00:03:45,458
and I started thinking about
the role of the Catholic Church

66
00:03:45,458 --> 00:03:49,896
in lives in the ‘60s.

67
00:03:49,896 --> 00:03:54,434
And for some reason, it just
led me to start researching.

68
00:03:54,434 --> 00:04:01,174
And my research took me to this
giant institution in Buffalo.

69
00:04:01,174 --> 00:04:02,575
It's still there.

70
00:04:02,575 --> 00:04:04,577
It's at 485 Best Street, if

71
00:04:04,577 --> 00:04:08,348
you ever want to look on
Google Maps or something.

72
00:04:08,348 --> 00:04:11,651
And now it's not a reform
school for girls, but

73
00:04:11,651 --> 00:04:13,987
it was called the Good Shepherd.

74
00:04:13,987 --> 00:04:17,223
And it existed from
like the 1880s till the

75
00:04:17,223 --> 00:04:22,061
1970s. And that was where they
sent girls who failed out of the

76
00:04:22,061 --> 00:04:26,833
a social system or foster care
system or girls who were orphans

77
00:04:26,833 --> 00:04:30,637
or girls who were pregnant
or girls who needed to be

78
00:04:30,637 --> 00:04:32,605
reformed for some reason.

79
00:04:32,605 --> 00:04:36,209
And it was run by incredibly
strict, harsh nuns.

80
00:04:36,209 --> 00:04:39,712
And so I was just fascinated
by this because I was a little

81
00:04:39,712 --> 00:04:42,382
bit aware of the Irish
Magdalene laundries.

82
00:04:42,382 --> 00:04:44,651
You know, we had been
hearing about those.

83
00:04:44,651 --> 00:04:46,419
They were coming
out in the news.

84
00:04:46,419 --> 00:04:49,756
I wasn't aware there
were so many in the

85
00:04:49,756 --> 00:04:54,160
States, including one in
Seattle, a real bad one in

86
00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:55,962
Albany, one in Philadelphia.

87
00:04:55,962 --> 00:04:59,465
But the one in Buffalo was so
interesting to me because the

88
00:04:59,465 --> 00:05:01,768
the building is still there.

89
00:05:01,768 --> 00:05:05,338
And then I connected
with some survivors and

90
00:05:05,338 --> 00:05:08,141
they're all women a
bit older than me.

91
00:05:08,141 --> 00:05:10,877
They're in their
seventies and eighties.

92
00:05:10,877 --> 00:05:13,246
And a couple of them
were incredibly

93
00:05:13,246 --> 00:05:16,015
forthcoming with
their experience.

94
00:05:16,015 --> 00:05:18,451
And it was, it
might've been just

95
00:05:18,451 --> 00:05:21,554
a year or a few years of
their lives that they

96
00:05:21,554 --> 00:05:24,290
were there, but it
marked them for life.

97
00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:26,292
And they had stories to tell.

98
00:05:26,292 --> 00:05:29,329
And I thought, well, how can
I put this in a novel and

99
00:05:29,329 --> 00:05:31,364
convince my Beach Book publisher

100
00:05:32,498 --> 00:05:36,636
that it would be a good
idea to publish this kind

101
00:05:36,636 --> 00:05:39,072
of different sort of thing?

102
00:05:39,072 --> 00:05:42,542
And I have to give my my
publisher, my editor credit,

103
00:05:42,542 --> 00:05:44,210
they really embraced the idea.

104
00:05:44,210 --> 00:05:47,113
They thought it sounded
like an important story.

105
00:05:47,113 --> 00:05:48,815
And it had a bookend because

106
00:05:48,815 --> 00:05:50,850
another thing that happened was

107
00:05:52,618 --> 00:05:58,291
in the early 2020s, I think, all
adoption records, pre-adoption

108
00:05:58,291 --> 00:06:02,295
records were unsealed by
the state of New York.

109
00:06:02,295 --> 00:06:05,231
And at the end,
there was also, they

110
00:06:05,231 --> 00:06:10,236
call it a look back law where
they take away the statute of

111
00:06:10,236 --> 00:06:15,641
limitations and people who
were victims even decades ago

112
00:06:15,641 --> 00:06:20,046
had a chance to seek justice
for a certain time period.

113
00:06:20,046 --> 00:06:23,116
And so it was kind
of bookended by that

114
00:06:23,116 --> 00:06:26,052
and things just started
falling into place.

115
00:06:26,052 --> 00:06:29,555
And it was one of those books
that took a long time to write

116
00:06:29,555 --> 00:06:32,291
because it spans
a big time span.

117
00:06:32,291 --> 00:06:34,861
And there's a lot of, I
wanted to get it right

118
00:06:34,861 --> 00:06:40,032
because I felt very, I felt
an obligation to these women

119
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:46,672
who survived this to tell the
story in the best way possible.

120
00:06:46,672 --> 00:06:48,474
And so I took my time.

121
00:06:48,474 --> 00:06:50,843
I took, you know, extra
time writing the book.

122
00:06:50,843 --> 00:06:56,115
And when it was published, I've
never had this happen before

123
00:06:56,115 --> 00:06:58,518
in a publication sequence...

124
00:06:58,518 --> 00:07:02,655
I started hearing from
people who would say things

125
00:07:02,655 --> 00:07:06,259
like, “That happened to
me. Or ”I know somebody.”

126
00:07:06,259 --> 00:07:09,262
And so that was new to me
because, you know, the Beach

127
00:07:09,262 --> 00:07:10,863
Books happen to everybody.

128
00:07:10,863 --> 00:07:13,633
We all go to the beach
and fall in love and, you

129
00:07:13,633 --> 00:07:16,636
know, have turmoil and
get married or whatever.

130
00:07:16,636 --> 00:07:17,970
But this was different.

131
00:07:17,970 --> 00:07:19,272
There was some quality.

132
00:07:19,272 --> 00:07:22,008
So thank you for letting
this be the book that

133
00:07:22,008 --> 00:07:23,609
we're going to talk about.

134
00:07:23,609 --> 00:07:28,214
-”Wayward Girls,” it does
have like the hallmarks of

135
00:07:28,214 --> 00:07:30,550
your other books, right?

136
00:07:30,550 --> 00:07:37,924
I mean, I think the ending,
you've been very, you've been,

137
00:07:37,924 --> 00:07:44,096
as you are to your characters,
you're so generous with

138
00:07:44,096 --> 00:07:49,001
your characters, you know,
and you care, you as the

139
00:07:49,001 --> 00:07:53,973
writer care about them and
want to do, you know, want

140
00:07:53,973 --> 00:07:56,175
to do the best for them.

141
00:07:56,175 --> 00:07:57,443
I mean, I've always felt that.

142
00:07:57,443 --> 00:07:58,211
Don't you think?

143
00:07:59,946 --> 00:08:03,616
-Absolutely. And as I know that 
you've had, you've had the one

144
00:08:03,616 --> 00:08:07,687
novel out and are we, are
we waiting for another one?

145
00:08:07,687 --> 00:08:10,156
-Just, just “George and Lizzie.”

146
00:08:10,156 --> 00:08:11,791
-Yeah, “George and Lizzie.”

147
00:08:11,791 --> 00:08:15,127
No, but these are the
people that you live

148
00:08:15,127 --> 00:08:17,296
with when you're writing.

149
00:08:17,296 --> 00:08:19,699
You're going to live with
them for a year or two years

150
00:08:19,699 --> 00:08:20,900
or however long it takes.

151
00:08:20,900 --> 00:08:23,803
And so you want to
build them into these

152
00:08:23,803 --> 00:08:27,874
three-dimensional characters
that feel real to you.

153
00:08:27,874 --> 00:08:28,708
And you're right.

154
00:08:28,708 --> 00:08:30,676
I have a great
deal of affection.

155
00:08:30,676 --> 00:08:33,579
And the other thing that
I was real conscious of

156
00:08:33,579 --> 00:08:36,682
as I was writing “Wayward
Girls” is I didn't want them

157
00:08:36,682 --> 00:08:38,084
all to be the same girl.

158
00:08:38,084 --> 00:08:42,922
I wanted each major character
to represent somebody who

159
00:08:42,922 --> 00:08:48,027
realistically would have been
at this institution in 1968.

160
00:08:48,027 --> 00:08:52,031
And so we have, you know, the
kind of Mairin, the irrepressible

161
00:08:52,031 --> 00:08:55,635
teenager with a strict Irish
mom and the awful stepdad.

162
00:08:55,635 --> 00:09:00,106
And then we've got the gal
who becomes a librarian.

163
00:09:00,106 --> 00:09:01,073
-Right, right.

164
00:09:01,073 --> 00:09:05,011
-And we have, and I did hear
from, it was secondhand, but

165
00:09:05,011 --> 00:09:08,814
somebody said, “Well, people
would bring their girls

166
00:09:08,814 --> 00:09:12,451
there if they were going
to go, like, work overseas

167
00:09:12,451 --> 00:09:14,220
for a time or something.”

168
00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:17,156
And they needed their
kid to stay somewhere.

169
00:09:17,156 --> 00:09:20,226
They didn't realize sometimes
the parents didn't realize

170
00:09:20,226 --> 00:09:22,562
what really went on in
these schools because

171
00:09:22,562 --> 00:09:23,963
they called them schools.

172
00:09:23,963 --> 00:09:25,865
But they didn't give
them an education.

173
00:09:25,865 --> 00:09:27,199
They made them do laundry.

174
00:09:27,199 --> 00:09:30,937
And at the one in Buffalo,
they made them make

175
00:09:30,937 --> 00:09:35,575
communion hosts, you know,
the little round crackers.

176
00:09:35,575 --> 00:09:40,279
So not much of an education
there, but my girls in “Wayward

177
00:09:40,279 --> 00:09:44,884
Girls,” the other thing that
was inspired by my research

178
00:09:44,884 --> 00:09:48,821
is a librarian helped me
a lot with my research.

179
00:09:48,821 --> 00:09:53,392
She's the librarian of the
Buffalo History Museum, and she

180
00:09:53,392 --> 00:09:55,795
sent me a snippet of an article.

181
00:09:55,795 --> 00:09:59,465
Remember articles that used
to be reproduced on, what do

182
00:09:59,465 --> 00:10:01,233
you call those big viewers?

183
00:10:01,233 --> 00:10:05,071
They're kind of like an amber
color thing um I can't even

184
00:10:05,071 --> 00:10:08,808
remember she but she sent me
one and it showed that the

185
00:10:08,808 --> 00:10:12,244
library bookmobile would
go to this place once a

186
00:10:12,244 --> 00:10:16,315
month and that inspired the
whole sequence of the escape

187
00:10:16,315 --> 00:10:20,419
so um yes so sometimes the
deeper you research the better

188
00:10:20,419 --> 00:10:22,288
your book gets.

189
00:10:22,288 --> 00:10:26,859
-Right. I mean, I
thought, like, as hard

190
00:10:26,859 --> 00:10:31,731
as this book was to write,
because it was so different,

191
00:10:31,731 --> 00:10:34,900
and you were trying to be
so true to the experience

192
00:10:34,900 --> 00:10:38,170
of the young women who
were there, I'll tell

193
00:10:38,170 --> 00:10:42,274
you, the fact that they
escaped in the bookmobile

194
00:10:42,274 --> 00:10:45,611
was, I just thought,
oh my gosh, this is

195
00:10:45,611 --> 00:10:48,881
terrific. 
-That was my movie moment.

196
00:10:48,881 --> 00:10:52,551
I'm desperate for some
movie producer to

197
00:10:52,551 --> 00:10:55,221
to pick it up and say,
“Okay, this is the movie

198
00:10:55,221 --> 00:10:56,489
trailer right here.”

199
00:10:56,489 --> 00:10:57,857
-Right, right.

200
00:10:57,857 --> 00:11:03,429
And the other thing, in
addition to the book itself

201
00:11:03,429 --> 00:11:07,133
and the story of
the girls and that,

202
00:11:07,133 --> 00:11:13,973
it was the little things that
you put in that I just loved.

203
00:11:13,973 --> 00:11:18,611
And one of them was the
reference, very close to

204
00:11:18,611 --> 00:11:23,983
the beginning, you refer to
Beverly Cleary's book “Fifteen,”

205
00:11:23,983 --> 00:11:29,689
which is how Mairin discovers,
that's her view of romance.

206
00:11:29,689 --> 00:11:34,460
All she knows is from
“Fifteen,” which is one of my

207
00:11:34,460 --> 00:11:37,697
all-time favorite novels.

208
00:11:37,697 --> 00:11:42,535
And the fact that you did that,
it just made me want to pick

209
00:11:42,535 --> 00:11:44,937
up “Wayward Girls” and hug it.

210
00:11:44,937 --> 00:11:48,708
And the other thing that
I thought you must have

211
00:11:48,708 --> 00:11:52,278
had great fun with is
all the music from 1968.

212
00:11:52,278 --> 00:11:57,817
That was like, you know, I just
went to Spotify and downloaded,

213
00:11:57,817 --> 00:12:00,186
“Oh yeah, I forgot about
that, I've got to put

214
00:12:00,186 --> 00:12:02,722
that on my listening,”
you know, to listen to.

215
00:12:02,722 --> 00:12:05,091
-That was one of the
most pleasurable

216
00:12:05,091 --> 00:12:08,360
parts of the research, is
what was on the top of

217
00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,664
the charts at that time,
and what would they

218
00:12:11,664 --> 00:12:12,998
have listened to.

219
00:12:12,998 --> 00:12:15,868
And I tried to make Mairin's
mother very judgmental

220
00:12:15,868 --> 00:12:16,902
about Pink Floyd.

221
00:12:16,902 --> 00:12:21,607
And, you know, I loved the fact
that “The Graduate,” the movie “The

222
00:12:21,607 --> 00:12:23,876
Graduate,” came out that year.

223
00:12:23,876 --> 00:12:27,313
And, you know, little bits
that I would find and be

224
00:12:27,313 --> 00:12:29,248
able to include in the book.

225
00:12:29,248 --> 00:12:31,984
It was really, that
was pretty good.

226
00:12:31,984 --> 00:12:37,590
-Yeah, well, as one reader of
it, I have to say, I just

227
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:43,629
loved encountering those
little bits that you put in.

228
00:12:43,629 --> 00:12:47,800
I have a question about
what you think about the

229
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,571
motivation of the nuns, the
sisters, who were running

230
00:12:52,571 --> 00:12:54,940
the Good Shepherd School.

231
00:12:56,208 --> 00:13:03,215
Do you think that any of them
believed in what, felt that

232
00:13:03,215 --> 00:13:06,852
they were helping the girls?

233
00:13:06,852 --> 00:13:07,953
-Oh, 100%.

234
00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:10,489
Yes, they absolutely.

235
00:13:10,489 --> 00:13:14,927
They were raised in
blind obedience and

236
00:13:14,927 --> 00:13:17,997
not to question authority.

237
00:13:17,997 --> 00:13:22,268
And they were told, you know, we
are saving these girls' souls.

238
00:13:22,268 --> 00:13:26,005
These are girls in trouble,
and here's how we fix them.

239
00:13:26,005 --> 00:13:28,374
And it was really uncomfortable.

240
00:13:28,374 --> 00:13:31,477
I always like to think I
would would be the rebellious

241
00:13:31,477 --> 00:13:33,546
one who's, you know, who
would stand up and say,

242
00:13:33,546 --> 00:13:36,048
“Well, we can't be doing
this,” but it's so

243
00:13:36,048 --> 00:13:39,385
institutionalized
and so ingrained.

244
00:13:39,385 --> 00:13:42,121
And when I think back to myself,

245
00:13:42,121 --> 00:13:45,457
you know, at that age, I
was very impressionable

246
00:13:45,457 --> 00:13:48,294
and I did want to get
along and I wanted to,

247
00:13:48,294 --> 00:13:50,663
you know, I wanted
to be the good girl.

248
00:13:50,663 --> 00:13:52,498
And, um, I, I, I like to think I

249
00:13:52,498 --> 00:13:55,701
wouldn't be as brutal as some
of these nuns were, but a

250
00:13:55,701 --> 00:13:58,604
lot of people perpetuate
what they were raised in.

251
00:13:58,604 --> 00:14:02,575
And that's why Sister
Rotrud, don't you

252
00:14:02,575 --> 00:14:05,077
love the name Rotrud?

253
00:14:05,077 --> 00:14:05,644
-I do.

254
00:14:05,644 --> 00:14:10,749
-That was why she, I sort of, I
didn't justify what she did,

255
00:14:10,749 --> 00:14:14,353
but it made it understandable
that she was, you know,

256
00:14:14,353 --> 00:14:19,058
came through the same system
and said, “Well, look at me,

257
00:14:19,058 --> 00:14:20,826
I'm a good woman now.”

258
00:14:20,826 --> 00:14:23,095
And so it was, that
was a, and that

259
00:14:23,095 --> 00:14:26,866
was a hard part because you
always want them to wake up one

260
00:14:26,866 --> 00:14:29,802
morning and say, “Wait a minute,
we can't be doing this.”

261
00:14:29,802 --> 00:14:31,737
And instead, and
then the other one,

262
00:14:31,737 --> 00:14:34,006
the one who was sort of
more on the fence and was

263
00:14:34,006 --> 00:14:36,242
actually the age of the
girl, she was so young,

264
00:14:36,242 --> 00:14:39,645
Sister Bernadette, named
after “Song of Bernadette,”

265
00:14:39,645 --> 00:14:41,747
one of the sweetest movies ever.

266
00:14:41,747 --> 00:14:44,850
But anyway, Bernadette
was pulled out of

267
00:14:44,850 --> 00:14:49,622
such horrific grinding poverty
that she had the element of

268
00:14:49,622 --> 00:14:53,125
gratitude. You know, they
saved me and I owe them,

269
00:14:53,125 --> 00:14:54,827
you know, my obedience.

270
00:14:54,827 --> 00:14:56,395
And so there was that.

271
00:14:56,395 --> 00:15:00,966
-Yeah, I can see how hard,
because as I read it,

272
00:15:00,966 --> 00:15:06,038
they were fully involved
in what they were doing.

273
00:15:06,038 --> 00:15:09,775
And they did have, each
had their own reasons for

274
00:15:09,775 --> 00:15:13,812
believing that this was the
right thing to be doing.

275
00:15:13,812 --> 00:15:19,118
But it was painful to see
two women treating other

276
00:15:19,118 --> 00:15:21,954
young women like they did.

277
00:15:21,954 --> 00:15:23,622
That must have been
hard to write.

278
00:15:23,622 --> 00:15:24,256
-It was.

279
00:15:24,256 --> 00:15:28,494
It was hard in the way that, to
me, “Handmaid's Tale” is hard.

280
00:15:28,494 --> 00:15:30,829
You know, we even have
now a character type

281
00:15:30,829 --> 00:15:32,097
called the Aunt Lydia.

282
00:15:32,097 --> 00:15:33,599
“Oh, don't be an Aunt Lydia.”

283
00:15:33,599 --> 00:15:37,436
That means don't enable
this really abusive system.

284
00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:39,872
And yet it went on
for years and years.

285
00:15:39,872 --> 00:15:43,943
There are some that persisted
in Ireland into, I think

286
00:15:43,943 --> 00:15:46,045
the last one closed in 1996.

287
00:15:46,045 --> 00:15:49,181
And so it's you know we're
well rid of them but

288
00:15:49,181 --> 00:15:52,618
they were really really
persistent and one of the

289
00:15:52,618 --> 00:15:55,421
most powerful things that
I read in the course of

290
00:15:55,421 --> 00:15:57,957
my research was a book
called “The Girl in the

291
00:15:57,957 --> 00:16:02,428
Tunnel” by Maureen Sullivan and
she was featured I think she was

292
00:16:02,428 --> 00:16:06,165
featured with Oprah and Claire
Claire Keegan, who wrote

293
00:16:06,165 --> 00:16:09,301
“Small Things Like These,” which
we've all read and had our

294
00:16:09,301 --> 00:16:10,869
hearts broken about that.

295
00:16:10,869 --> 00:16:15,174
But Maureen's memoir, she
had one of those crystal

296
00:16:15,174 --> 00:16:19,778
clear memories of her
childhood going from institute

297
00:16:19,778 --> 00:16:21,914
to institute in Ireland.

298
00:16:21,914 --> 00:16:28,387
And she really made it
understandable why the victims

299
00:16:28,387 --> 00:16:35,294
would tolerate this and why it
was seen as a helpful thing.

300
00:16:35,294 --> 00:16:40,399
But I'm happy, you know, the
way we treat our young women, I

301
00:16:40,399 --> 00:16:43,268
hope that we're getting better.

302
00:16:43,268 --> 00:16:46,238
I think we're getting better,
but, you know, there's still

303
00:16:46,238 --> 00:16:47,706
room for improvement there.

304
00:16:47,706 --> 00:16:53,078
-So moving on from “Wayward
Girls,” do you think, what

305
00:16:53,078 --> 00:16:55,481
are you working on now?

306
00:16:55,481 --> 00:17:00,152
-I'm starting to research a
book that takes place in 1975.

307
00:17:00,152 --> 00:17:04,089
So there was something
nostalgic about going back

308
00:17:04,089 --> 00:17:07,626
to my childhood and and
revisiting that and so

309
00:17:07,626 --> 00:17:11,597
um this is this is um has to
do with the the wrap-up of the

310
00:17:11,597 --> 00:17:15,334
Vietnam War and things that
were happening in the ‘70s

311
00:17:15,334 --> 00:17:18,404
because that's the other
thing is when you're

312
00:17:18,404 --> 00:17:22,107
writing a book um the only
thing more fun than writing the

313
00:17:22,107 --> 00:17:25,978
book is the next book sort of
pulling at you and saying, wait,

314
00:17:25,978 --> 00:17:28,213
wait, pick me, pick me.

315
00:17:28,213 --> 00:17:31,884
So I'm just starting
to research life

316
00:17:31,884 --> 00:17:33,218
in the 1970s.

317
00:17:33,218 --> 00:17:37,089
And I really liked one
of the things that was

318
00:17:37,089 --> 00:17:41,593
really creatively satisfying
for me is to write a book

319
00:17:41,593 --> 00:17:43,896
that had such a broad scope.

320
00:17:43,896 --> 00:17:48,367
It spanned a life from
15 to 70-something.

321
00:17:48,367 --> 00:17:52,571
And so I really
loved that journey.

322
00:17:52,571 --> 00:17:55,941
So I'm kind of
interested in that, too.

323
00:17:55,941 --> 00:17:57,443
But it will be a
Susan Wiggs book.

324
00:17:57,443 --> 00:18:01,346
There will be like affectionate,
good characters that, you

325
00:18:01,346 --> 00:18:04,550
know, find their way to the
end by hook or by crook.

326
00:18:04,550 --> 00:18:07,953
But, yep, I'm just in
the research stages.

327
00:18:07,953 --> 00:18:11,056
I had a, I know you're
a bicyclist, right?

328
00:18:12,391 --> 00:18:15,828
-I switched to walking because
I felt like bicycling was

329
00:18:15,828 --> 00:18:17,296
a little too dangerous.

330
00:18:17,296 --> 00:18:18,230
-You know what?

331
00:18:18,230 --> 00:18:19,731
That is a good choice.

332
00:18:19,731 --> 00:18:21,800
I was bicycling last year and I

333
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,604
flipped over an unmarked
speed bump here on Bainbridge

334
00:18:25,604 --> 00:18:29,074
Island and pretty much broke
every bone in my head.

335
00:18:30,142 --> 00:18:30,776
-Oh, no.

336
00:18:30,776 --> 00:18:35,581
-Yeah, airlift to Harborview
and, you know, the whole drama.

337
00:18:35,581 --> 00:18:38,750
And so it's been,
that's been a journey.

338
00:18:38,750 --> 00:18:42,421
I've never had an injury
that serious before.

339
00:18:42,421 --> 00:18:45,757
And it's not one that you
just heal from and walk away.

340
00:18:45,757 --> 00:18:47,259
It's happening in stages.

341
00:18:47,259 --> 00:18:49,595
I'm getting better,
but it's definitely,

342
00:18:49,595 --> 00:18:53,332
it's slowed me down and it's
made me have a new rule.

343
00:18:53,332 --> 00:18:56,635
One new rule is have as
much fun as you can,

344
00:18:56,635 --> 00:18:58,270
as quick as you can.

345
00:18:58,270 --> 00:19:01,540
You never know when you're
going to be upside down

346
00:19:01,540 --> 00:19:02,808
on the trail.

347
00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:06,778
And number two is, you
know, just take your time.

348
00:19:06,778 --> 00:19:08,447
Take your time, read
some more books.

349
00:19:09,515 --> 00:19:10,816
-Right, right.

350
00:19:10,816 --> 00:19:14,086
And what do you, when
you're doing the

351
00:19:14,086 --> 00:19:16,755
research, what do you turn to?

352
00:19:16,755 --> 00:19:18,457
What do you look at?

353
00:19:18,457 --> 00:19:20,859
-My first stop, the library.

354
00:19:20,859 --> 00:19:23,362
Yep. First stop, library.

355
00:19:23,362 --> 00:19:27,132
And then, of course,
internet is always

356
00:19:27,132 --> 00:19:28,734
the rabbit hole.

357
00:19:28,734 --> 00:19:32,471
And it can lead you
down some really, you

358
00:19:32,471 --> 00:19:35,207
know, unproductive places.

359
00:19:35,207 --> 00:19:38,410
But it's also incredibly varied.

360
00:19:38,410 --> 00:19:41,813
You know, like one of the one
of the treasure troves that

361
00:19:41,813 --> 00:19:45,217
I found, you know, trying to
research “Wayward Girls” was

362
00:19:45,217 --> 00:19:48,554
a message board for women
who had survived these these

363
00:19:48,554 --> 00:19:52,191
reform schools, these Magdalene
laundries in the States.

364
00:19:52,191 --> 00:19:53,992
That's how I found out
there were so many.

365
00:19:55,327 --> 00:19:55,661
-Wow.

366
00:19:56,795 --> 00:20:00,699
Gosh because um I thought
that was uh because I

367
00:20:00,699 --> 00:20:04,670
think doing research as
a librarian I feel like

368
00:20:04,703 --> 00:20:08,941
you know doing research
is one of the great time

369
00:20:08,941 --> 00:20:12,878
time wasters in in a way
and then but it's not

370
00:20:12,878 --> 00:20:14,146
not really a waste.

371
00:20:14,146 --> 00:20:16,014
You can just go down all these

372
00:20:16,014 --> 00:20:17,649
different rabbit holes.

373
00:20:17,649 --> 00:20:20,452
-Well, it's time
intensive, I would say.

374
00:20:20,452 --> 00:20:23,522
-Yeah. -And it's
probably my favorite

375
00:20:23,522 --> 00:20:27,593
thing. And if I get stuck
when I'm writing a book,

376
00:20:27,593 --> 00:20:30,462
which does happen a lot,
it's because I haven't

377
00:20:30,462 --> 00:20:31,830
done enough research.

378
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:34,766
And so I have to go and
and revive, you know,

379
00:20:34,766 --> 00:20:38,237
a trail has gone cold
or something like that.

380
00:20:38,237 --> 00:20:41,673
And so that's definitely,
because if you think about it,

381
00:20:41,673 --> 00:20:44,676
if you're writing a book
about somebody who's not you,

382
00:20:44,676 --> 00:20:46,345
you've got to research
that whole life.

383
00:20:46,345 --> 00:20:49,014
If she's a librarian,
if she's a farmer,

384
00:20:49,014 --> 00:20:50,849
if she's a broadcast
professional or

385
00:20:50,849 --> 00:20:51,883
something like that.

386
00:20:51,883 --> 00:20:55,420
So there's plenty of research
to be done and there's

387
00:20:55,420 --> 00:20:57,155
inspiration all around.

388
00:20:57,155 --> 00:21:00,192
-Do you have an outline
when you write?

389
00:21:00,192 --> 00:21:03,795
I do, and it's not
super detailed,

390
00:21:03,795 --> 00:21:08,533
but I definitely use it
like a loose roadmap.

391
00:21:08,533 --> 00:21:11,270
I hope that I leave
enough flexibility

392
00:21:12,271 --> 00:21:16,508
to change things up
as I encounter them

393
00:21:16,508 --> 00:21:19,278
because the characters take
on a life of their own

394
00:21:19,278 --> 00:21:22,781
and you can't always predict
how they're going to act.

395
00:21:22,781 --> 00:21:28,587
So I try to be easy
on myself, you know,

396
00:21:28,587 --> 00:21:32,891
if something doesn't add
up or something like that.

397
00:21:32,891 --> 00:21:33,925
But yeah, I do.

398
00:21:33,925 --> 00:21:37,396
And I share that with my editor,
who's a very creative person

399
00:21:37,396 --> 00:21:38,463
at William Morrow Books.

400
00:21:38,463 --> 00:21:40,465
It's an imprint
of HarperCollins.

401
00:21:40,465 --> 00:21:44,002
And she is happy to
weigh in on things.

402
00:21:44,002 --> 00:21:47,172
I mean, she doesn't
declare, you know,

403
00:21:47,172 --> 00:21:48,974
“You must do this,
you must do that!”

404
00:21:48,974 --> 00:21:52,778
But she is really good at
asking the good questions.

405
00:21:52,778 --> 00:21:55,013
You know, well, what
if, you know, what if

406
00:21:55,013 --> 00:21:56,014
we go here with it?

407
00:21:56,014 --> 00:21:57,549
You know, that sort of thing.

408
00:21:57,549 --> 00:22:00,319
And so I appreciate
that partnership too.

409
00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:09,127
-My editor for my novel, “George
and Lizzie,” at Touchstone,

410
00:22:09,127 --> 00:22:10,762
which is an imprint of
Simon and Schuster,

411
00:22:12,798 --> 00:22:17,202
when I finished and sent
the whole thing into her

412
00:22:17,202 --> 00:22:20,205
she sent me a letter
with like 10 questions

413
00:22:21,573 --> 00:22:23,742
and in answering those questions

414
00:22:24,776 --> 00:22:27,412
got at everything that she
thought that the book needed

415
00:22:27,412 --> 00:22:30,716
and they were terrific
questions and so I think that

416
00:22:30,716 --> 00:22:32,517
kind of collaboration

417
00:22:33,552 --> 00:22:36,521
that you have with your
editor is so great.

418
00:22:36,521 --> 00:22:38,390
-Yeah, a good editor is
such a gift, isn't it?

419
00:22:39,825 --> 00:22:41,560
-So last question.

420
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,029
What are you reading these days?

421
00:22:44,029 --> 00:22:45,697
-You know what I'm reading?

422
00:22:45,697 --> 00:22:48,834
I was shocked to learn that
this was a children's book.

423
00:22:48,834 --> 00:22:49,768
And I bet you've read it.

424
00:22:49,768 --> 00:22:52,738
I'm reading “The Last Quintista.”

425
00:22:52,738 --> 00:22:54,740
And it won the Newbery Award.

426
00:22:56,208 --> 00:22:59,811
I have no idea why
it's a kid's book.

427
00:22:59,811 --> 00:23:03,882
She's a survivor of a horrible
thing that happens to Earth

428
00:23:03,882 --> 00:23:07,419
and goes with her
family to outer space.

429
00:23:07,419 --> 00:23:09,020
It's amazing.

430
00:23:09,020 --> 00:23:10,555
It's amazing.

431
00:23:10,555 --> 00:23:13,658
Yeah, and I picked it up.

432
00:23:13,658 --> 00:23:14,893
It's one of those few things.

433
00:23:14,893 --> 00:23:16,928
I'd never heard of the
book or the writer,

434
00:23:16,928 --> 00:23:18,997
but it was on display
at the library.

435
00:23:18,997 --> 00:23:21,366
And so I picked it up
and I am a sucker for

436
00:23:21,366 --> 00:23:22,801
really good cover art.

437
00:23:22,801 --> 00:23:25,670
Like I love my paperback
cover art for “Wayward Girls.”

438
00:23:25,670 --> 00:23:27,072
It's so bright and shiny.

439
00:23:27,072 --> 00:23:28,807
The hardcover looks
very serious,

440
00:23:28,807 --> 00:23:33,011
but the paperback book club
edition looks more like a party.

441
00:23:33,011 --> 00:23:36,281
And so I, this one,
the “Last Quintista” by,

442
00:23:36,281 --> 00:23:39,918
let me look up her name
because I don't, yeah,

443
00:23:39,918 --> 00:23:41,720
I didn't recognize
who the author is.

444
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,390
Donna

445
00:23:47,058 --> 00:23:49,961
Donna Barba I'm going
to say this wrong

446
00:23:49,961 --> 00:23:55,100
H-I-G-U-E-R-A and it's a

447
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:57,536
magnificent book
you would love it

448
00:23:57,536 --> 00:23:58,937
it's a Nancy book for sure.

449
00:23:59,971 --> 00:24:02,941
-I'm going to go put
it on hold right now.

450
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:07,345
Susan Wiggs thank you so much

451
00:24:07,345 --> 00:24:09,214
for being on the show today.

452
00:24:09,214 --> 00:24:13,251
It's just been a delight
to talk to another

453
00:24:13,251 --> 00:24:14,986
fan of libraries.

454
00:24:14,986 --> 00:24:17,422
And I'm just in awe of your

455
00:24:17,422 --> 00:24:19,491
career and your books.

456
00:24:19,491 --> 00:24:23,428
I just think we're so
lucky to have you here.

457
00:24:23,428 --> 00:24:26,731
-Well, this is a high point being
on Nancy's show because I'm,

458
00:24:26,731 --> 00:24:28,133
like I say, I'm such a fan.

459
00:24:28,133 --> 00:24:29,701
So thank you very
much for having me.

460
00:24:29,701 --> 00:24:31,036
This was delightful.

461
00:24:31,036 --> 00:24:31,536
-Thank you.

462
00:24:33,438 --> 00:24:47,018
♪ Book Lust theme song ♪