[♪♪]
- Depression is a serious cancer
or, you know, a serious illness
because people take their lives.
- We had no words.
I couldn't have gone and told my parents I'm sad.
They wouldn't know what that meant.
Well, just be happy.
I didn't even know how to name it.
And I was like,
you have to accomplish things.
You have to get things done.
So I just powered through it.
- I found my bottom, I hit my bottom
and I was ready to leave this place.
I felt like there was no way out
and I was ready to go.
I had it planned out.
[♪♪]
- Welcome to Chino y Chicano.
I'm Enrique Cerna.
Mental health touches nearly every family in America.
More than 1 in 5 adults lives with a mental illness.
1 in 5 has been diagnosed with depression
at some point and nearly 1 in 3
high school
students report struggling with their mental health.
Every 11 minutes, someone in America dies
by suicide, and nearly 80% of those deaths are men.
These aren't just statistics.
They are our family members,
our friends, neighbors and coworkers.
I'm not just interested
in these numbers because I've lived
a part of this story myself.
I've battled depression,
and I know how isolating it can feel.
Two of my good friends were Roberta Romero,
Executive Producer of King-5 News’ Facing Race,
and Randy Eng., producer, photographer and editor
at the Seattle Channel.
also know that feeling because they've lived it.
We talked recently about our mental health struggles.
[♪♪]
Roberto Romero and Randy Eng.
Thanks so much for taking the time
to talk to me and to talk about something that I think
all three of us have, dealt with at some time.
Unfortunately, I've been dealing with it lately.
Over the past month, I've had a depressive
episode and struggled quite a bit.
So I actually was diagnosed
with depression when I was 34 years old, but
I'm pretty sure I probably had depressive episodes
when I was, in high school and definitely in college.
And, but it was when I was 34 that
I really hit the wall and, just really had a breakdown.
And the toughest part of that for me was the,
I got caught up in the stigma about it all,
and I didn't want anybody to know.
And I was really struggling.
And, at work, I remember
sometimes, a couple of my supervisors
being saying to me, what's your problem?
You know, like,
why you just seem like
you're down all the time and you're got no energy.
And how come,
you know, I was doing my work,
but it was like, you know, you could tell
I kind of wasn't always there.
And I was afraid to tell them.
I was really afraid to tell them.
How about you guys?
How did this hit your life?
Bert... you can start.
- I think, first of all, I had no idea how to name it.
You know, there were only two feelings
that I thought of, like.
And one of them was to be happy at all costs.
So I'm always looking for happy.
If you're not happy, what's wrong with you?
Why aren't you happy? What's going on?
So faking and pretending I'm happy.
And then anger was like no different.
Those are the only two emotions
that I knew how to recognize.
And when I think about depression, you know,
and the shame of it, I think about culturally,
to, to go to someone and say,
even at
the age of 34 to say, hey,
I have some mental health issues.
We had no words.
I couldn't have gone and told my parents.
I'm sad they wouldn't know what that meant.
Well, just be happy.
I didn't even know how to name it and I was a woman.
Like, you have to accomplish
things, you have to get things done.
So I. You just power through it. Yeah.
White knuckling,
It's exhausting.
- Yeah.
Randy?
- You know,
at least Bert got to name it.
In my culture, the way I was raised,
if you had any problem,
just keep it to yourself.
Don't be a burden to anyone else.
Don't make your problems somebody else's problem.
If you've got a problem, figure it out for yourself.
So I pretty much had to suck it in my
entire life,
you know, it's just like,
oh, I'm sad and okay, and I'm
not going to burden me when
I'm just going to keep going
and I can keep it to myself and it'll go away.
The truth is, it never goes away, right?
It just stays with you, just goes deeper and
deeper builds, builds, builds, you know?
But I mean, for my parents.
And I don't blame my parents...
How about this?
I blame my grandparents because they gave my parents
the toolbox for what they used for me.
I was given no tools to cope.
I was given no tools to,
you know, just knew what problem, you know?
And it took me a long time to stop blaming my parents.
But at the same time,
you know, I wanted so much more
from them than they ever gave.
- Yeah, I think my parents.
Well, actually, I was 28.
I think it was when my mother died suddenly.
28, 29.
And that hit me like a ton of bricks
because I was very I was a mama's boy.
I was the youngest in the family,
and my mother was
very much in our lives as far as checking on us
all the time.
And, she died suddenly, and it just was it
hit me just hard.
And I made a mistake at that time
because I went to my primary care physician
and he said, well, you know,
I think you might be dealing
with a little bit of depression.
I want you to see this psychiatrist.
And I was afraid and embarrassed.
But culturally, we still have these issues of,
you know, breaking down barriers within our own
families and communities about this and,
that that's that's tough.
I know that among Latinos, I think at all cultures,
there's still that sense of like, a sense of weakness.
And and that is a huge challenge.
And I think people have to realize that
depression is a serious cancer or,
you know, a serious illness
because people take their lives.
You know, I have good friends
that have committed suicide,
that I didn't even know they had an issue.
You know, that it's just like they
you see them one day and they seem fine.
Then you get a call from somebody
that said they took their life.
And boy,
now I've been
at that point of where I seriously thought about it.
But I guess I'm just too chicken, fortunately.
But I did think about it.
I did think about it because I just was like
at the point of like, man, I am just rock bottom here.
And, in fact, I had a conversation
last night with a friend of mine
just calling to check on me and, yeah.
And I called and told him I left
a message this morning just telling him
how much I appreciated that he checked in on me,
which I think is a very, very important thing,
because I want to point out that this guy
Randy, in his check down on me a lot.
And it gets I had some real issues
over the past year, year and a half. And,
you know, just that,
you know, Randy, I appreciate that so much
that you've been there for me.
So, yeah.
- I’ll add in my story.
So I, you know, it's been about ten years.
I found my bottom, I hit my
bottom, and I was ready to leave this place.
I felt like there was no way out.
And that was why I didn't go. I had it planned out,
and I gave myself one phone call.
Thinking that she would never pick up the phone.
But she did.
And Roberta
talked me down for the next three hours.
And, but I was ready to leave, you know, it was,
I was in a very, very, very dark place, and,
you know,
I'll remember later, Roberta’s husband
Frank, said, you know, you're calling Bert...
that means you didn't want to die.
Yeah.
You know, it's you...
the world
has never met Roberta, but,
she was
such a bright light, and and she kept on reminding me
about your kids, you know? What about your family?
Very people who knew you.
You know, and sometimes you need to hear that
when you when you're
spiraling, you don't realize that, you know,
you were truly thinking about taking your own life.
It's a very selfish act, and it really hurt
the people who are left behind.
And you know,
when you don't have that support group,
when you don't have people around you
reminding you how important you are it’s so easy to
to spiral, you know.
And now I am so very grateful for Roberta
because I wouldn’t be here
if she didn't answer the phone, you know.
And she is...
and has been a very special friend for me.
And so,
you know, I'm kind of passing the torch
Enrique, you know,
I mean, I feel like the Roberta
gave me some more tools, you know, to help
poeople who I can see who are struggling.
I think it's,
Yeah, it's important for us to step up
and not just pretend like,
oh, they're playing there, you know?
And there are very subtle cues
that that we can all see. Yeah.
We have a chance to make a difference
if we choose to step forward.
- Yeah.
I when you called that one time and I just,
I was really bad... boy....
I don't know how long we talked, but
but by the end of it, you had me laughing. So,
But it made a huge difference.
- You are very necessary.
You are good man, and a good friend...
- It's tough because you
when you're dealing with this stuff,
you don't feel that,
you know, that's the hardest thing.
So. Yeah.
So when Randy called you tell me about that
is I gather myself here.
- I think, first of all, I really think
it's important for me to acknowledge is
I am deeply grateful
for the both of you for sharing this story.
I think one of the things for me
that is lacking or the disconnect
is intimacy and vulnerability,
and those are words that I, I you would never know
who I was. I had a very thick mask.
I did not want to know my how vulnerable I was,
and I certainly didn't want to be intimate
that that the connection
that scared me for some reason.
You know, I don't know why.
Because then you'd see the real me
and you wouldn't like me.
You know, if there's just a lot of stuff around it.
So when you two men, men of color
are willing to share these intimate moments,
that's what changes the world.
That's why our kids or the next generation,
they'll be going back,
Randy, getting back to your grandparents.
They won't blame you, grandpa, if you ever become one
because you broke the cycle.
Both you and Enrique broke the cycle.
That's the key.
And it is about talking about it.
There's that saying could.
Because my postpartum depression,
led me to alcoholism, which led me to recovery.
But you're as sick as your secrets,
and we keep the stuff so buried in.
So it's the connection.
Connection is the key to recovery.
And that phone call.
The phone call. And,
you know, when Randy called me,
and again, you know
exactly what you said, Enrique...
What? You're sad.
Yeah, I mean, I am.
I consider Randy a brother.
We are connected in a way
that I don't even know how to explain.
Even though we weren't right.
We're raised in different households.
He is my brother by choice,
and I thought I knew him inside and out, you know.
And so when he called me and told me this,
it stunned me.
You? What?
Because we keep it so tightly wound down.
So, you know, I've learned how, you know,
and I think we all should learn
the language around this, because I used to think
if you thought someone was thinking about suicide,
don't bring it up, because then you'll
put the idea in their head.
Guess what?
The idea is already in their head, right?
You ask them about it
because then it cracks it open.
So when Randy called and he told me this,
I don't remember much of the conversation
other than you're so precious,
you're so important.
Please know that.
Let me love you until you can love yourself.
Because I love you, man, I love you.
I need you, you know?
And sometimes you just need to hear that.
Like, you don't want to put the burden of, like,
you have to live because of me,
but I need you.
I need you my life.
Your children need you.
Your family needs you. We need you.
This community needs you, Enrique.
Think about all of that.
You've contributed. Yes, your family
and your children. But I think of the....
You have moved the needle
for people of color.
When we...
When the murder of George
Floyd happened and there were no podcast
like this, there was nobody talking about this.
What if we didn't have you?
You know, I mean, let's go.
Let's look at that.
The ripple and the pond, that little,
that little rock in the water.
And now look at where it's going.
You don't know who's going to hear this
and who's
going to hear that story that you just shared.
This is powerful.
This is what keeps me alive and keeps me going.
- Yeah.
- You know?
- So. Thank you. Well.
Thank you.
Was there anything in particular,
Randy, that the bird said that really
kind of talked you down?
Or is it just that she just kept you
on the phone so long?
Yeah, because we know Burt can talk and have stories.
- I think it was just,
the fact that she answered
and acknowledged me, I think, was all that I need.
I think.
- Just just think if she hadn't answered the phone.
- I was ready to go.
I was ready to go.
I was done.
I was ready to go.
- And why her?
[Laughs]
- Partly because we really had a strong connection.
We were the overnight morning shift for,
what, almost five, seven years, a long time.
And, you know,
when you,
when you're in news and you know,
you have a live shot at six and six
and, and seven, seven, 30 and eight,
there's a lot of talking that happens in between.
You know,
I think you probably already started your recovery
around that time.
So I, I kind of knew that you,
You had walked through the fire in some way.
And so I felt like, okay, if and if there's anyone
who can understand me, it might be Bert.
And and so I tried Bert.
And, you know, you weren't even in my speed dial.
I had to, like, search for your name!
-Geez!
- It was...
- Was she the only one you called?
- She the only one I called.
- Oh, my God.
The only one I called.
Yeah.
And, you know,
I was in a relationship in the time,
like I was divorced, but I was in a relationship.
Didn't even think about, my kids,
It was, you know, it was...
My circle was very, very small.
I didn't know
anyone to reach out, and nor did
I have the tools, you know,
like we were talking about, you know, to,
say I am
hurting in a really bad way.
- You know, I get into the stigma.
I'm very open about my alcoholism again,
if we're not talking about it,
if we're not talking about
this is what recovery looks like.
This is island alcoholic.
If we don't start talking about it,
first of all, we're losing the generation.
And trust me, in my day, there was no such thing
as fentanyl or the THC in the levels of marijuana
right now. Unbelievable.
So if we're not talking about this,
we're never going to be able to get well.
And alcohol wasn’t my problem?
My head was my problem.
My depression and anxiety and and low
self-esteem were my problem.
Alcohol was my symptom.
And also the only thing
that I could use to self-medicate.
And I had to learn that.
I had to learn that it took me a long time.
And again, the shame and stigma
of being a woman, a woman of color.
And then you're an alcoholic.
So I let people know so that if they have to talk to.
I'm here. I'm here to talk.
And I think the other key Enrique and I think, Randy,
I think it's something that we're really
good at, partly because of our business.
I do, and I, I'm not.
This isn't like, oh, humble brag,
but we know how to listen.
We do know how to listen.
Yes, we're talkers, but we also know how to listen.
And I don't think people listen very much.
- I think sometimes within some families,
You know, conflict avoidance is big.
And so you,
you don't deal with those issues.
So later in life you become kind of cold
or you lack empathy. And,
of course, being a Latino in my family,
that was not the case at all, because, you know,
we were we wore our emotions on our sleeve.
I mean, I do that, there's no doubt about it.
I mean, I can be quite a quiet person as well.
And I've had people say,
oh, you're so quiet and all of this.
I go, you don't know me. That one. Well, I,
because, you know, I do.
I do wear my emotions and,
but the thing about wanting to hide it is there.
And I tell people that I'm a real pro
at hiding the depression because I am.
You know, I've learned how to do that.
My son and my daughter in law,
who have been worried about me, called
and left messages and texted
and I didn't pick up, which is very odd for me.
So I woke up at 1 p.m.
to pounding and,
so I thought it was somebody at the front door,
opened the door, and nobody's there.
I turn around, I looked through
my living room window on my patio,
and there's my son,
and he's had been pounding on the window,
and he was upset.
And he's like, you know, what the hell?
Why haven't you been answering?
And, you know, we've been calling all morning.
And he was pretty upset with me.
And then I sat him down and he knew
I'd been struggling.
And so we talk more about it
than I realize through this,
how many good friends I have, but also how
my son and his wife have just,
you know, been there for me too.
And that that is a pretty special thing.
So when you think and you're so low,
you got to remember that,
that who you would hurt if you took your life.
My sister would really be pissed at me.
And and
then I have three grandkids,
you know, twins, almost two year old twins
and, four year old.
I can't do that because I got them.
And and every time I think or am low,
I got a I got to think about it.
- Enrique, how did you get help?
And, Randy, how did you get help?
I think that,
you know,
we always talk
about the problem, but then what's the next step?
- I was looking for answers because I'd wake up
every morning at that time hoping, you know,
instead of this dark cloud, I'd hope there be sunshine.
And, you know, it wasn't happening.
Of course, I was impatient because
I wanted it to happen right away.
And that isn't the case. It takes time with this.
Sometimes, you know, you're lucky
if you get a medication that pops you right away.
And none of that ever happened with me.
It was always something that needed to happen.
I actually had a breakdown and then in with that,
I found medication that helped me.
I think anytime you go to therapy,
if you're looking for a quick fix,
you're in the wrong place
because all of us have to unpack our issues.
I mean, I got to I have therapy once a week
and sometimes twice because I need it.
So I well, the biggest thing that started
listening to my doctors
instead of ignoring them,
and which we tend to do, and particularly men
tend to do and but it's tougher now,
I think, because even to get
doctors appointments, at times it's more difficult.
So it's a combination, I think, of, of someone's,
motivation,
but also maybe like
friends like this saying, hey, you know,
you don't look good
or what's going on and talking and,
and making those connections
because it's really true that having
those friendships really work. But,
I don't think there's any one quick fix
on this whole thing, Randy, you?
Know, you know, to circle back to, Burt's,
prompt, um,
I was actually already in therapy,
but the process of un peeling the onion,
actually started,
revealing a lot of things
that I felt were irreparable.
Right. It's not fixable.
I can't move forward because of this stuff.
And and that to when I hit my bottom.
And, you know, you talk about going to therapy. Yes.
But therapy is really important.
But it's only as good as what you do give it.
Yeah. Right.
And in my, my first marriage, you know,
I was having, in my first marriage.
And so I went to a therapist
and I just gave all surface levels about nothing.
And so the therapist, because
I think she was bored, but she goes, you're good,
you're all fixed! And I'm like,
okay.
And I yeah, I'm great now, but really, I was like,
who am I kidding?
I was still a mess, you know? But,
I think the key is that you have to go
because you want to get better.
And, you know, my wife,
Maria and I have
this kind of rollercoaster ride, and and,
and one of the low point,
she said, you know, you need to get some help.
And, you know, the words
that stuck with me were that “...I can't
go with you on that journey,”
you know, that that is then your journey
and you need to figure things out.
And I think
for me, that was the real catalyst
to actually take mental health.
seriously.
you know, because again, like I said,
I see this
like coasting , i’ll tell them
what they think they want to hear.
I tell them, I want them to hear
you know what I think they want to hear
and but not really give anything of myself
that would make me, as you say Bert,
feel vulnerable or feel scared
or actually reveal the truth
that I'm ashamed or something, you know? And,
you know, it's not
until you actually show up
with some real honesty that, you know,
you can make me progress
until you're ready to to face it,
you know, any sort of therapy, it's
going to be pretty useless.
- Yeah, I think
I think that, you know, you really hit it because
it's what you put into it that you're going
to get out of it.
And I did the same thing that you did
when I first started going.
I was not honest at all.
I was like, you know, I always like, you know,
I'm not going to tell you
all about me and then I'm not going to do that.
And I don't want to be in her very long,
even though I needed the help,
but it really is
until you start to open up about yourself and admit
you know, your shortcomings or the things that are
that have happened to you
that you're really embarrassed about,
and so that you can kind of tackle this stuff
because it's all tied together.
Bert, what’s helped you?
For sure going to treatment for alcoholism helped me
because it taught me so much,
and I wanted to touch on that just a bit,
because you had mentioned it earlier Enrique, about
about getting help like that, the depression
that the stigma and the shame around it.
If we had cancer,
we would have had a team of doctors,
I'd have had casseroles brought to my
my home.
Someone whould have been willing to take care of my kids.
Not only did I get zero support,
I had to find it myself.
Was like, oh, you have depression.
Well, you better go figure on your own.
Well, but I'm depressed.
- Yeah, - I can’t get out of bed!
- Yeah.
Now I’m supposed to
go and look and and there's this their medication.
Nobody's there to hold your hand,
to walk you through the steps.
So I there's sort of this two thing like,
especially when Randy talked about you have to want it.
That is true.
You have to want it.
But you also still need someone to hold your hand
a little bit to help you do it.
Like, who do I call?
How do I get this going?
Even like, if somebody's like, okay, what's your insurance like?
I’m like, I’m out if I have to fill out insurance...
And, you know, like, even that would have been like,
I have to fill out insurance.
That would overwhelm me.
And especially if I'm depressed
or alcoholic, I don't know how to do this.
So I really think it's important that
we can help each other
or go to a person that can help you navigate
so that you can get through it.
Now we talking about those steps
like, okay, I need help. Okay. Now what?
So it's just really a lot out there
for people to navigate while they're sick.
- Right? Right.
For you know, I feel very fortunate I have Medicare.
- Yeah. I'm not going to lie to you.
When you said that you were going
once or twice a week, I'm like, oh,
Enrique is rich! [Laughs] I can’t afford that!
- No, no, no!
- Honestly but that's where it comes to us.
That's, you know, like like, well,
I can't afford it, so I'm not going to
go to treatment either or therapy.
I mean, there's a lot of barriers, but there is help.
There's, you know, there are ways to do it
if you're willing to at least try.
And it's I guess that's what I'd say.
And also there's two steps.
When you ask for help, there are two steps.
You have to ask for help.
And then there's a very the most important part is
you have to accept the help.
[Laughs]
Now you have to be a participant in it.
I can't fix it for you.
You now have to accept it and you now
have to do the work.
Oh, that was the other thing I was going to say.
I felt like I was hanging off the edge of a cliff.
I'm just hanging there, me hanging there.
And if I let go, if I stop drinking,
if I let go, I'm going to fall forever.
And then I'm going to smash into a million pieces.
I oh, I'm so tired and I'm hanging.
And I finally let go.
And I dropped an inch.
And then I looked around and there's Enrique
and there's Randy.
But what I built in my head of what
what the help was going to be was so much worse
and so much scarier than what it really is.
- Okay.
I just want you to to know
that you're on my speed dial.
- For enchiladas, I hope. [Laughs]
There you. Go. Yeah, that'll be afterwards. Yeah.
So we'll do that.
Hey, listen, I want to thank you guys
for opening up and just talking about this.
And I,
I'd like
to have more conversations because I think
it's important.
And particularly, I think for our communities,
to see
and hopefully hear our stories
and to
realize you're not alone and that if you need help
that, you know, reach out.
It's it's not easy.
It's hard. But,
you know. Yeah.
If if we hopefully,
in talking about this can maybe inspire
or motivate others to say, hey,
I need some help, or
I'm here to help you, I'm here to listen.
I hope we can just do a little bit of that.
And so let's make sure you make sure we do that.
So Bert, send me any links to folks that you,
think we need to connect to. Randy?
You too, if you have any.
And, again, I just want to thank you guys.
And, Randy, I, you know, you're my bro
because, thank you
for being there for me and, Bert, you know, same thing.
You're not my bro, but you're my hermana.
- Yeah. - All right.
- Trying to do baby heart.
All right, guys, thank you so much.
[♪♪]