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Thanks very
much for coming, everyone.

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While we have a panel of
experts who I'll introduce

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momentarily, I do want to say
we want this to be fun as well

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as educational evening.

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Feel free to get up and
grab another drink or

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order food if you like.

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We'll talk for 45 minutes
or an hour and then open it

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up for questions because I'm
sure there will be some.

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So we're going to talk tonight
about communications between

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the mayor's office and the
police department and the

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city of Seattle more broadly
and the public in the wake of

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the shootings at the Bite of
Seattle Festival at Seattle

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Center back in the end of July.

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And try to understand what
exactly was going on, how

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things should have worked,
or how we would want things

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to have unfolded that evening.

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What happened then in the
week or so that followed

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when the police chief
was asked to resign?

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And what does all this
tell us about the way our

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government is working
together here at the city

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and how it might work better to
address gun violence and improve

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public safety around the city.

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So to discuss this, we have
Sue Rahr, law enforcement,

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nationally recognized
law enforcement leader,

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former King County Sheriff,
former interim chief of

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Seattle Police, many other
experiences and wisdom.

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Too many to enumerate.

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Thanks for being here, Sue.

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I'm old.

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Benton Strong, who has worked
in public communications in a

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variety of different settings,
from Washington, D.C.

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to out here in Seattle.

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You're currently at
Vigor Marine, right?

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That's right, Vigor
Marine Group, yeah.

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And we invited Benton in
particular because he was

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director of communications
for Mayor Ed Murray

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and so has that direct
experience in the mayor's office

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with the communications shop.

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Thanks a lot for
being here, Benton.

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And then finally, Tim Burgess,
who has held just about

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every public office in the
city of Seattle at one

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point in time or another.

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He was a police officer.

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He was a city council member,
served with distinction.

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He was an interim mayor.

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He was also a
deputy mayor and so

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he has many perspectives
on these issues and we're

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really pleased to have you
here Tim thanks so the

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mayor Wilson herself
admitted in the wake of

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the shootings at the Bite
of Seattle that public

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communications were not what
she would have liked

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she said we didn't send
information out consistently

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through the city's
social media accounts.

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We didn't use
AlertSeattle and there

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was not a briefing for
the press within an hour.

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Those are basically her
words that I'm quoting

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from a
Seattle Times article.

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And she admitted
to communication

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failures within SPD and
communication failures

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between SPD and her office
the night of the shooting.

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So when there's a police,

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when there are three people
shot at a big public

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festival and then not only
did they, well more people,

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more than three people were
shot actually, three people

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were killed tragically
and several others

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were injured that night.

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How should we want
communications

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with the public and between the
mayor's office and the police

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department or between the chief
executive's office and the

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law enforcement to
unfold in those hours?

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Is there a usual protocol?

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Is there a distribution of
responsibilities between the

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mayor and the mayor's office
and law enforcement for who's

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supposed to be communicating
with the public?

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What has been your
experience or experiences?

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Well, I'll start.

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I've got more years
as a cop than

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Tim does, even though he's
a lot older than I am.

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I spent more time on
the street than he did.

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Sue, I gave you a job
out of retirement.

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I know, thank you.

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One of these days I'm going
to show you how beautifully

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I remodeled my house.

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So what should, you know,
there's what should happen

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and then what did happen.

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So let's talk about
what should happen.

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What should happen, particularly
when there's an incident like

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this at a large public event,
the most important communication

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goal is to let the public
know what should they do.

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Should they duck and cover?

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Should they run?

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What is happening?

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Because at the Bite of Seattle,

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the information was not
shared right away and

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people didn't know whether
there was a madman spraying

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crowds of people with
bullets or something else.

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And ideally, the public
would have been notified

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right away that this was
a targeted shooting with,

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we believe, unintended victims.

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That small piece of
information would

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have brought the
temperature way down.

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And people that were near
the Bite of Seattle event

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could have maybe taken a
breath and felt like, OK,

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I'm probably not going
to get mowed down

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by a person intent on just
indiscriminately killing

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That's what should
have happened.

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And that is the
police department's

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responsibility to get that
information out right away.

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When a major event happens,
obviously the police department,

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the mayor's office, all
kinds of city departments

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need to work together.

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But the public safety
piece of it is initially

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primarily the responsibility
of the police department.

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And so in my experience across
the nation, typically the

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police chief is in communication
with the mayor's office.

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But the police chief or their
designee will do, I've used the

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term public safety briefing in
the incident command checklist.

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It's called a public
safety statement.

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But that should go out
as soon as possible.

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It doesn't contain
things like a suspect

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description or motivation
or anything like that.

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It's just this is the nature of
the thing that just happened.

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So for you gentlemen,
from the perspective

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of the mayor's office,
What is the mayor's office

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sort of looking for at this
point beyond this public

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communication about the
nature of the situation

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from the police department?

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So in my 71 days as the
mayor of Seattle and as I

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when I worked with Mayor
Harrell as a deputy mayor,

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we had a very clear protocol.

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and the police department,
either the 911 center

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or their command post
at police headquarters

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and the fire department
can immediately notify

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myself or whoever is
designated by the mayor

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to receive that first
notification that something

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significant has happened.

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And that would usually happen
anywhere from two or three

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minutes after the event
to 15 or 20, depending on

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the nature of the event.

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So our office would have
been notified quickly

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in that situation.

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We also would not, in the
mayor's office, we would

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not be saying anything
about that incident.

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Kind of like what Sue said.

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It's the police department's
responsibility.

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or if it's a major fire
that's risky, it's

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the fire department's
responsibility to make any

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statements to the public.

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We on the political side
want to stay out of that

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and let them do their job.

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Now, we don't know why they
didn't this time, but I think

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we'll find out eventually.

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I had the great benefit
of working for Tim for I

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think one half of those
71 days right at the

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beginning. I would just add
from a communication standpoint

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between the departments that
in addition to the high level

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information that you
would expect the mayor

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or the mayor's chief of
staff or a deputy mayor

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to get directly from
SPD, the communications

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people should be in
communication immediately.

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And if you have a really good
relationship between SPD and the

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mayor's office, the PIO
from SPD is going to inform

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the mayor's communications
director almost faster

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probably than the top of
that chain will, so that

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the mayor's communications
director can go to work

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getting the mayor prepared for
what they need to do next.

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And it was also
clear that

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probably didn't happen.

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But I would say that's a
relationship that's built

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from day one when the
mayor comes into office

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and the continuity within
the mayor's office and

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the mayor's communication
shop helps make that

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more positive and makes
that relationship move

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something like this
much more quickly.

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It doesn't happen on the

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day of the event.

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And so that's a
thing I think that

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is less known about how
this process works is

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what happens between the
communications people,

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particularly during a big
event like this, where

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that communication is
probably already happening.

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You probably already have a
text thread or an email thread

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going in case something happens,
but that's a key piece that

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makes information move faster
and actions move faster.

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Yeah, thanks for
mentioning that.

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I should have mentioned that.

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That's another layer of
communication that's

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happening and in this case
a police incident a lot

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of people a lot of victims
it would be the PIO from

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the mayor's office the
police department the

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fire department the 911 center
at a minimum those folks

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talking constantly as things
progress for the evening and for

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For those of us who don't work
in communications or public

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executives' offices or haven't
worked in them for 40 years,

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a PIO is a public information
officer, ladies and gentlemen.

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And so what I'm hearing then is
that those communications

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folks should have been in thick
contact, if you will, that

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afternoon and evening as
events were unfolding.

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And that, as I think,
Benton, you were alluding

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to, they ideally would
have built a working

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relationship from the moment
the mayor was sworn in

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and got her team assembled
essentially so in a

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situation where you're
uncertain are there because

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obviously there while the
police knew the nature

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of the incident broadly
speaking, as you

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suggested earlier, Sue,

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a lot of the particulars were
still unknown at that point.

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And so I'm wondering,
what's the sort of mix

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of ethical responsibility
and kind of prompt

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communication duties?

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How do you weigh
the balance there?

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Are there moments where you
withhold certain kinds of

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information just because
you're uncertain about them?

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Or is there a way to get across
to the public a certain amount

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of information that they
need to know in the moment?

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That's what you were
alluding to earlier.

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Can you elaborate
on that a little?

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Yeah, the rule of thumb is even
if you know virtually nothing,

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it's important for the public to
see somebody stand in front of

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the camera and say, we're here.

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We've got our arms around this.

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I obviously have a lot
of relationships with

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people inside of SPD,
and I've had many

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conversations with people
that were involved in this.

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And even if you don't
know all the details,

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it was quickly known that
this was a targeted shooting.

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And so in my experience, and
just having sensitivity to

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a community, in this nation,
we're used to hearing,

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unfortunately, about mass
shootings where, you know, it's

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a madman with rifles and stuff.

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And so as a chief or an
acting chief or a leader,

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you would know that the
public is thinking this is

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a horrible, giant event.

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And to say even just a little
bit would be enormously helpful.

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You don't have to wait
until you have all the

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details completely clear.

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I would just add rule
number one is don't put

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out bad information.

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Bad, exactly.

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What you don't know.

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If you don't know or it's
unclear or it's unconfirmed,

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rule number one is do not
put out bad information.

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Nothing erodes public
trust faster than finding

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out that they learned
something that was not true.

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And so coordinating the
communications across all the

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various agencies involved here
can prevent that from happening

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and also not being in a rush.

248
00:12:55,399 --> 00:12:58,037
So you need to move fast,
but you need to not be

249
00:12:58,037 --> 00:12:59,320
in a rush to get it out.

250
00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,966
The second thing I would say is
there's a lot of conversation

251
00:13:01,966 --> 00:13:04,451
about we don't want to have a
press conference at Seattle

252
00:13:04,451 --> 00:13:06,940
Center because this might
still be an active situation.

253
00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:09,125
Well, the upside is the city of
Seattle has a venue for a press

254
00:13:09,125 --> 00:13:10,220
conference that's off-site.

255
00:13:10,220 --> 00:13:11,519
It's the Emergency
Operations Center.

256
00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:14,028
It's a building built for
this exact situation, that if

257
00:13:14,028 --> 00:13:16,533
you need to do an off-site
press conference, you can set

258
00:13:16,533 --> 00:13:18,826
up the media in that room
and have one, and you can do

259
00:13:18,826 --> 00:13:20,080
it as quickly as you want to.

260
00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,821
Typically, I understand it
might not have actually

261
00:13:22,821 --> 00:13:24,158
been activated this day.

262
00:13:24,158 --> 00:13:26,094
Typically, it usually
would have been activated

263
00:13:26,094 --> 00:13:27,840
on a day like this when
you have a major event,

264
00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:29,969
which means most of the
people who are involved in

265
00:13:29,969 --> 00:13:31,923
this are in the same room,
and you can all very

266
00:13:31,923 --> 00:13:33,220
quickly pull this together.

267
00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:35,186
But even if it wasn't,
you can open it up pretty

268
00:13:35,186 --> 00:13:37,360
quickly and have a press
conference if you need to.

269
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,024
Well, and I think what
happened here is we had

270
00:13:40,024 --> 00:13:43,120
the perfect storm of a new
mayor's administration,

271
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,807
new people in the comms
assignments in the mayor's

272
00:13:46,807 --> 00:13:50,500
office there was new people
in comms in the Seattle

273
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:54,019
police department I think it's
pretty widely known that the

274
00:13:54,019 --> 00:13:57,451
majority of the command
staff of the Seattle police

275
00:13:57,451 --> 00:14:01,355
department was on vacation
which is shocking to me

276
00:14:01,355 --> 00:14:04,697
frankly so you have all
of the things, so if you

277
00:14:04,697 --> 00:14:07,999
had an administration with a
comms team that was stable

278
00:14:07,999 --> 00:14:11,442
and a police department with
a comms team that was stable,

279
00:14:11,442 --> 00:14:14,960
they would have had those
relationships already in place.

280
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:18,201
They'd have everybody's, you
know, cell phone lined up

281
00:14:18,201 --> 00:14:21,158
and they would be talking
to each other right away.

282
00:14:21,158 --> 00:14:24,845
It appears, and again, I am
commenting from the sidelines,

283
00:14:24,845 --> 00:14:26,798
so I want to really caveat this.

284
00:14:26,798 --> 00:14:29,464
It appears that that
communication wasn't

285
00:14:29,464 --> 00:14:30,500
going very well.

286
00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:33,581
The person overseeing
communications for the

287
00:14:33,581 --> 00:14:36,820
Seattle Police Department
wasn't at this scene.

288
00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:39,960
The chief of police
was out of town.

289
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,639
And, I mean, there's
so many things.

290
00:14:42,639 --> 00:14:45,961
You know, you read these stories
about airline crashes, and

291
00:14:45,961 --> 00:14:49,220
they say, you know, 10 things
go wrong to create a disaster.

292
00:14:49,220 --> 00:14:52,730
in this case there was probably
10 things that weren't going

293
00:14:52,730 --> 00:14:56,615
well and it's the confluence of
all those things that I think

294
00:14:56,615 --> 00:15:00,899
caused this to turn out so badly
and now when I say so badly the

295
00:15:00,899 --> 00:15:04,274
communications I want
to underscore that the

296
00:15:04,274 --> 00:15:07,740
police the incident
command center the

297
00:15:07,740 --> 00:15:10,820
operations of the Seattle Police
Department were stellar and I'm

298
00:15:10,820 --> 00:15:13,820
not just saying that because
I love the police department.

299
00:15:13,820 --> 00:15:17,644
They really did an
extraordinarily effective job in

300
00:15:17,644 --> 00:15:22,080
that operation, which just got
lost in all of the other drama.

301
00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,618
That's extremely helpful
and succinct um before we

302
00:15:28,618 --> 00:15:33,153
move to the next topic which
is chief Shon Barnes's

303
00:15:33,153 --> 00:15:37,177
resignation that followed I
have one more question about

304
00:15:37,177 --> 00:15:43,932
out sort of just to kind of
sum up what I'm hearing here

305
00:15:43,932 --> 00:15:48,749
and see if Tim and Benton
have anything to add to your

306
00:15:48,749 --> 00:15:49,820
nice synopsis there.

307
00:15:53,658 --> 00:15:56,673
What I think I'm hearing
is that the communications

308
00:15:56,673 --> 00:15:59,480
issues the night of the
bite of Seattle shooting

309
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,590
was really about was
really a combination of

310
00:16:03,590 --> 00:16:08,700
inexperience and then and
poor interdepartmental

311
00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:13,075
communication and then a
handful of sort of or a

312
00:16:13,075 --> 00:16:17,899
series of decisions that
weren't made essentially

313
00:16:17,899 --> 00:16:21,249
to get the emergency what is it
called the emergency

314
00:16:21,249 --> 00:16:25,600
operations center activated
um to put the text

315
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,956
chain message to put the
message chain in gear um

316
00:16:29,956 --> 00:16:33,331
and um and get more
timely information

317
00:16:33,331 --> 00:16:34,340
out to the public.

318
00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:35,580
Anything to add, Tim or Ben?

319
00:16:35,580 --> 00:16:39,379
Yeah, I think the key question
that is not yet answered

320
00:16:39,379 --> 00:16:43,038
is why did the police
department not follow

321
00:16:43,038 --> 00:16:46,980
their normal protocols in
emergency situations like this?

322
00:16:48,500 --> 00:16:51,677
As we talked earlier, when
something of significance,

323
00:16:51,677 --> 00:16:53,240
where there's lots
of media attention

324
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,489
or a lot of people involved,
and there were a lot of

325
00:16:56,489 --> 00:17:00,250
people involved in this, they
have a protocol that they

326
00:17:00,250 --> 00:17:04,640
follow and that media briefing
or public safety statement will

327
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,769
happen anywhere from 30 to 60
minutes after the event or less

328
00:17:08,769 --> 00:17:12,631
depending on the circumstances
and it's usually done by

329
00:17:12,631 --> 00:17:15,808
the incident commander
who's on the scene that

330
00:17:15,808 --> 00:17:20,077
didn't happen and so in my
mind, the question is why?

331
00:17:20,077 --> 00:17:24,400
Why did they not do
their normal protocols?

332
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,577
And we don't know that yet.

333
00:17:26,577 --> 00:17:28,421
Well, and I think that's
what's been frustrating to

334
00:17:28,421 --> 00:17:31,192
watch from the sidelines is
people keep asking, you know,

335
00:17:31,192 --> 00:17:34,597
who in the mayor's office said
delay the press conference?

336
00:17:34,597 --> 00:17:36,880
To me, that's not
the right question.

337
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,711
The question should be
why didn't the chief or

338
00:17:39,711 --> 00:17:41,278
the acting chief do this?

339
00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:45,650
That's the question we
should be asking I should

340
00:17:45,650 --> 00:17:48,778
I mean when I was there
the police chief we worked

341
00:17:48,778 --> 00:17:51,390
for if we had not moved
fast enough she would have

342
00:17:51,390 --> 00:17:54,000
just gone ahead and done
the job right I mean that

343
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,290
and we'll deal with the
consequences later because

344
00:17:56,290 --> 00:17:58,480
that is more important
than the mayor's politics

345
00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,122
at the end of the day right and
that does underscore

346
00:18:02,122 --> 00:18:05,171
though again I think one of
the questions was, is this

347
00:18:05,171 --> 00:18:07,160
unique to this situation
versus does the city

348
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:08,259
have processes in place?

349
00:18:08,259 --> 00:18:08,960
It does.

350
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,038
There is a way this
is supposed to work.

351
00:18:11,038 --> 00:18:13,117
It didn't work in
this situation.

352
00:18:13,117 --> 00:18:15,867
And that speaks, I think, to
Tim's point for why did the

353
00:18:15,867 --> 00:18:18,680
police department not act
according to its protocols,

354
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,760
but it also obviously speaks
to the breakdown between the

355
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,239
two offices in particular.

356
00:18:26,597 --> 00:18:28,739
That police chief that
Benton just referred

357
00:18:28,739 --> 00:18:29,778
to was Kathy O'Toole.

358
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,337
She would have waved at me
while she went and did it.

359
00:18:36,259 --> 00:18:38,922
I think Tim and I had some of
those conversations during my

360
00:18:38,922 --> 00:18:40,420
little brief period there, too.

361
00:18:40,420 --> 00:18:44,019
It's like, excuse me,
I'm plowing through.

362
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:47,337
A couple times.

363
00:18:47,337 --> 00:18:51,390
Speaking of police chiefs,
in the days immediately

364
00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:55,630
following the shooting, the
mayor asked police chief

365
00:18:55,630 --> 00:18:57,419
Shon Barnes to resign.

366
00:18:57,420 --> 00:19:01,077
That exchange was leaked
to the press initially.

367
00:19:01,077 --> 00:19:04,615
And though Barnes didn't resign
right away, he did so a couple

368
00:19:04,615 --> 00:19:07,875
days later after negotiating
a settlement of over half a

369
00:19:07,875 --> 00:19:09,680
million dollars from the city.

370
00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:15,028
why do we think Chief
Barnes' resignation

371
00:19:15,028 --> 00:19:16,900
unfolded the way it did?

372
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:21,700
Ask the mayor.

373
00:19:23,597 --> 00:19:27,557
I brought a copy of the city
charter here, one paragraph,

374
00:19:27,557 --> 00:19:30,351
and it talks about the
mayor's authority to

375
00:19:30,351 --> 00:19:31,979
remove the police chief.

376
00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:34,659
And she does have
that authority.

377
00:19:34,660 --> 00:19:36,557
And this is what it says.

378
00:19:36,557 --> 00:19:40,409
The mayor may remove the
chief of police upon

379
00:19:40,409 --> 00:19:44,673
filing a statement of his
or her reasons for doing

380
00:19:44,673 --> 00:19:46,857
so with the city council.

381
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,798
She's not done that.

382
00:19:49,798 --> 00:19:52,500
And I think she has claimed
that, well, he resigned.

383
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:54,440
I didn't remove him.

384
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,519
but then she also admits
I asked him to resign.

385
00:19:58,980 --> 00:20:01,837
Council members have sent a
letter to the mayor saying

386
00:20:01,837 --> 00:20:04,153
you need to fulfill
your obligation under

387
00:20:04,153 --> 00:20:06,690
the city charter because
you triggered the

388
00:20:06,690 --> 00:20:10,000
removal of the chief of
police and so far she has

389
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,346
not done that yet which
is why I don't think

390
00:20:13,346 --> 00:20:17,000
we know too much about why
she asked him to resign.

391
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:18,720
Clearly within her
purview to do that

392
00:20:20,259 --> 00:20:24,982
but this charter provision
should be followed do

393
00:20:24,982 --> 00:20:29,480
you think the mayor is
getting a fair shake here

394
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:33,375
so for those of you who
haven't seen a photo of

395
00:20:33,375 --> 00:20:37,380
her she's younger she's
female er than many of

396
00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:42,786
our other recent mayors
and you know the City

397
00:20:42,786 --> 00:20:47,537
Council have several City
Council members have criticized

398
00:20:47,537 --> 00:20:50,140
her for not explaining
her rationale completely

399
00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:53,125
for asking the chief to
resign there's been a lot

400
00:20:53,125 --> 00:20:54,920
of criticism on social media

401
00:20:56,298 --> 00:20:59,250
some of the
print media have been fairly

402
00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:01,961
hard on her how much her age
gender affecting the way

403
00:21:01,961 --> 00:21:03,180
she's being treated here?

404
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:07,880
I think it's a factor.

405
00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:09,857
It's always a factor.

406
00:21:09,857 --> 00:21:12,900
You know, I don't know why this
would be a different situation.

407
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,096
But I think there's also
following the letter of the law,

408
00:21:19,096 --> 00:21:22,951
the spirit of the law, and
then doing what's right and

409
00:21:22,951 --> 00:21:26,519
what's gonna
build public trust and I

410
00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:29,740
think that's what we're
seeing here is based on

411
00:21:29,740 --> 00:21:33,096
what I know about the
whole situation I think it

412
00:21:33,096 --> 00:21:36,617
was the right decision
but implemented really

413
00:21:36,617 --> 00:21:42,086
clumsily is a generous
way to describe it.

414
00:21:42,086 --> 00:21:45,837
I had a hard time with it is she

415
00:21:45,837 --> 00:21:47,326
She's getting a fair shake.

416
00:21:47,326 --> 00:21:48,492
Yes, she's the mayor.

417
00:21:48,492 --> 00:21:50,180
Right. And she made a decision.

418
00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:52,794
And part of making a decision,
particularly after you won

419
00:21:52,794 --> 00:21:55,409
an election by 2000 votes, is
that a significant number of

420
00:21:55,409 --> 00:21:58,076
people are going to criticize
your decisions because they

421
00:21:58,076 --> 00:21:59,439
disagree with you generally.

422
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:00,461
It's part of the job.

423
00:22:00,461 --> 00:22:02,449
And that's why you
have a big team around

424
00:22:02,449 --> 00:22:05,036
you that helps you manage
some of that criticism and

425
00:22:05,036 --> 00:22:06,420
how you tell your own story.

426
00:22:06,420 --> 00:22:09,778
And, you know, certainly they
could be better at that.

427
00:22:09,778 --> 00:22:12,739
I would argue it was a
questionable political

428
00:22:12,739 --> 00:22:16,086
decision at the time that
she did it because she took

429
00:22:16,086 --> 00:22:19,356
away the screen from being
able to blame the chief.

430
00:22:19,357 --> 00:22:22,030
Once she decided to get rid
of the chief so quickly, now

431
00:22:22,030 --> 00:22:24,884
all of that pressure, she's
wrapping her arms around this

432
00:22:24,884 --> 00:22:27,439
situation and has to own it
as the leader of the city.

433
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,766
So it's a questionable
political choice.

434
00:22:29,766 --> 00:22:31,959
And I would just say,
in my opinion, that

435
00:22:31,959 --> 00:22:34,949
there's really no scenario
short of gross misconduct

436
00:22:34,949 --> 00:22:37,940
that would necessitate doing
it as quickly as she did.

437
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,596
The order of activities that
needed to happen then, right,

438
00:22:41,596 --> 00:22:44,182
was ensure we effectively
communicated with the public,

439
00:22:44,182 --> 00:22:46,500
make sure the investigation
is progressing the way

440
00:22:46,500 --> 00:22:47,576
that it's progressing.

441
00:22:47,577 --> 00:22:49,640
You'll hear me say this
a couple times tonight.

442
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:51,375
Start asking the question
about why we have a

443
00:22:51,375 --> 00:22:53,928
youth gun violence problem and
how a teenager ended up at

444
00:22:53,928 --> 00:22:55,576
Seattle Center with a ghost gun.

445
00:22:55,577 --> 00:22:58,097
And then a few weeks later,
we can ask the question,

446
00:22:58,097 --> 00:22:59,778
was this situation handled well?

447
00:22:59,778 --> 00:23:01,680
And is the police
chief to blame?

448
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,567
Then we can go back and
say, maybe we should

449
00:23:03,567 --> 00:23:04,700
move on from this person.

450
00:23:04,700 --> 00:23:07,740
I do not think it needed
to happen immediately.

451
00:23:07,740 --> 00:23:09,759
And I don't think,
unfortunately for her,

452
00:23:09,759 --> 00:23:12,278
that she's been able to
sort of carry the mantle

453
00:23:12,278 --> 00:23:13,699
since it happened, right?

454
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:17,237
And that's, you know,
when you ask why did it

455
00:23:17,237 --> 00:23:20,192
happen the way that it
did, some of that is just

456
00:23:20,192 --> 00:23:21,038
pure inexperience.

457
00:23:21,038 --> 00:23:23,403
When you have been in a
situation where you have to make

458
00:23:23,403 --> 00:23:25,844
a decision like this quickly,
you're going to react and you're

459
00:23:25,844 --> 00:23:27,798
going to make the decision
that's in front of you, right?

460
00:23:27,798 --> 00:23:30,519
And I think that's most
likely what happened here.

461
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:35,105
I certainly had the
impression that it was

462
00:23:35,105 --> 00:23:36,519
sort of the last straw.

463
00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:42,159
The request for the resignation
wasn't just for this one thing.

464
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,827
And I think anybody who,
I'm sure there's people

465
00:23:44,827 --> 00:23:47,499
in this room that have
run large organizations,

466
00:23:49,077 --> 00:23:52,288
just on the face of it,
the week of the Bite of

467
00:23:52,288 --> 00:23:54,519
Seattle Torchlight Seafair,

468
00:23:55,857 --> 00:23:59,220
arguably the busiest week
in the city every year.

469
00:23:59,220 --> 00:24:01,104
And to have all the critical

470
00:24:01,104 --> 00:24:04,678
leaders in the police
department gone, you know,

471
00:24:04,678 --> 00:24:08,055
if I was the mayor, I
would be asking what kind

472
00:24:08,055 --> 00:24:09,880
of a leader allows that.

473
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,011
So I think that speaks to
something much larger.

474
00:24:13,011 --> 00:24:15,597
And I think a lot of
information has

475
00:24:15,597 --> 00:24:20,097
been circulated in the public
about the leadership that

476
00:24:20,097 --> 00:24:21,720
was demonstrated.

477
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,617
But you're right,
the timing sucked.

478
00:24:25,617 --> 00:24:27,538
I wouldn't disagree with
you that in the end,

479
00:24:27,538 --> 00:24:29,500
she potentially made the
right decision here.

480
00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:30,220
I believe so.

481
00:24:30,220 --> 00:24:31,459
Part of it is let's
not undermine

482
00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:34,420
the trust in the police
department on that day.

483
00:24:34,420 --> 00:24:37,019
We need the public to trust
everything coming out

484
00:24:37,019 --> 00:24:38,159
from the department
and to believe

485
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,336
that it's being well led as
we go through this process

486
00:24:40,337 --> 00:24:41,440
for these days.

487
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:42,788
And that didn't happen.

488
00:24:42,788 --> 00:24:44,276
It became about why did the

489
00:24:44,276 --> 00:24:47,180
mayor fire the police chief
for some period of time?

490
00:24:48,616 --> 00:24:51,342
So not all the leadership
of the police department

491
00:24:51,342 --> 00:24:52,636
was gone and out of town.

492
00:24:52,636 --> 00:24:56,972
The chief Barnes had designated
one of his assistant chiefs to

493
00:24:56,972 --> 00:24:59,057
be the acting chief of police.

494
00:24:59,057 --> 00:25:03,259
But to your comment or your
question, Steve, I'm hesitant

495
00:25:03,259 --> 00:25:07,896
to criticize mayors until I have
facts that would justify that.

496
00:25:07,896 --> 00:25:11,951
And I think what's happening
on social media here is unfair

497
00:25:11,951 --> 00:25:15,344
to her in many ways because
people are just like we

498
00:25:15,344 --> 00:25:19,479
see on almost any political
situation in our country today.

499
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,903
People just draw conclusions
that they just kind of

500
00:25:22,903 --> 00:25:24,337
picked out of the air.

501
00:25:24,337 --> 00:25:28,700
So I would, did they make
mistakes in the mayor's office?

502
00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:31,337
Yeah, they should have never
put out a statement that

503
00:25:31,337 --> 00:25:32,660
two people were arrested.

504
00:25:32,660 --> 00:25:36,778
We never commented on police
actions until they were done.

505
00:25:36,778 --> 00:25:40,959
And we let them comment
about the actions they take.

506
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,960
So that was a big
mistake on their part,

507
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,210
which probably because they
didn't have much experience

508
00:25:46,210 --> 00:25:47,700
with this kind of an event.

509
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:49,876
But we'll see.

510
00:25:49,876 --> 00:25:51,617
I mean, it's going
to be interesting.

511
00:25:51,617 --> 00:25:54,769
Next Tuesday, the city council
has the police command

512
00:25:54,769 --> 00:25:57,086
staff in front of them,
and they're going to

513
00:25:57,086 --> 00:25:58,076
ask, what happened?

514
00:25:58,077 --> 00:26:00,159
Why didn't you do your
normal protocols?

515
00:26:00,159 --> 00:26:01,940
And we'll see what they say.

516
00:26:01,940 --> 00:26:03,479
I don't know the answer to that.

517
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:05,720
So we'll all know
maybe next Tuesday.

518
00:26:08,376 --> 00:26:11,971
Let's put Chief Barnes'
resignation in recent

519
00:26:11,971 --> 00:26:13,999
historical context here.

520
00:26:13,999 --> 00:26:17,622
We've seen several police
chiefs, the last two

521
00:26:17,622 --> 00:26:20,943
or three police chiefs,
depart under somewhat

522
00:26:20,943 --> 00:26:24,338
acrimonious or unfortunate
circumstances between

523
00:26:24,338 --> 00:26:28,414
Chief Best's resignation
when the City Council was

524
00:26:28,414 --> 00:26:33,057
announced cuts to the SPD
budget we saw chief Diaz

525
00:26:35,057 --> 00:26:39,509
resign amidst what I think
we can all agree was a

526
00:26:39,509 --> 00:26:43,807
scandal he was fired in
but he was fired thank you

527
00:26:43,807 --> 00:26:47,876
for clarifying due to
personal conduct does this

528
00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:51,605
frequent turnover just
come with the territory of

529
00:26:51,605 --> 00:26:54,818
being a police chief in a
city like Seattle or is

530
00:26:54,818 --> 00:26:58,159
there something particular
to our town whether it's

531
00:26:58,159 --> 00:27:00,778
policing or politics that
we need to understand

532
00:27:00,778 --> 00:27:01,959
and address as a city?

533
00:27:05,259 --> 00:27:06,597
Who wants to take that one?

534
00:27:08,538 --> 00:27:12,097
Sue lasted as police chief for
the whole time we wanted her.

535
00:27:12,097 --> 00:27:16,220
I think it was actually a couple
months longer, as I recall.

536
00:27:16,220 --> 00:27:19,959
There's a reason we have you
three as our panel tonight.

537
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,854
So, you know, it varies from
city to city, but generally

538
00:27:23,854 --> 00:27:27,576
two, three, maybe four years
is kind of what happens.

539
00:27:28,719 --> 00:27:34,336
Seattle's longest serving
police chief appointed by

540
00:27:34,336 --> 00:27:37,459
Charlie Royer lasted 16 years

541
00:27:38,739 --> 00:27:42,960
Patrick Fitzsimons came
from New York I remember

542
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,180
watching when he was at
his confirmation hearing

543
00:27:48,576 --> 00:27:52,727
I was still with the police
department and he was asked

544
00:27:52,727 --> 00:27:56,913
to give an opening statement
and he basically said I stayed

545
00:27:56,913 --> 00:28:00,857
at this hotel downtown it's
called the Olympic Hotel my room

546
00:28:00,857 --> 00:28:04,057
looked right out on 4th Avenue
and I woke up New York time so

547
00:28:04,057 --> 00:28:05,659
I was up at four in the morning

548
00:28:07,116 --> 00:28:09,673
and I'm looking out the
window and there's a guy

549
00:28:09,673 --> 00:28:12,538
standing on the corner and
he's not doing anything.

550
00:28:13,636 --> 00:28:15,499
And then I noticed the
light turned green

551
00:28:15,499 --> 00:28:16,557
and he crossed the street.

552
00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:20,298
There's no cars anywhere.

553
00:28:20,298 --> 00:28:22,636
I want to be the police
chief in this city.

554
00:28:24,298 --> 00:28:26,836
And I think he sealed his
confirmation right then.

555
00:28:30,116 --> 00:28:31,396
I don't know how to
follow that, but I did.

556
00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:35,268
I mean, I would say, I'm
not sure it's harder

557
00:28:35,268 --> 00:28:36,919
to be in this town as a
police chief or the mayor.

558
00:28:36,919 --> 00:28:40,078
Neither of them last very long
as we've uh I see mayor Nickels

559
00:28:40,078 --> 00:28:41,596
in the back you had the tenure

560
00:28:42,836 --> 00:28:46,038
but you know I've been reading I
don't know if all of you have I

561
00:28:46,038 --> 00:28:48,780
see Sandeep in the back I've
been reading this long piece

562
00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:51,259
about the Seattle public school
district and I would actually

563
00:28:51,259 --> 00:28:53,882
compare the police chief
role in the city to the

564
00:28:53,882 --> 00:28:56,640
SPS superintendent role
in the city both of

565
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,036
those jobs are incredibly
difficult to hold

566
00:29:00,036 --> 00:29:03,798
because you have massive
conflicts in how people

567
00:29:03,798 --> 00:29:07,799
feel about how these
particular large organizations

568
00:29:07,799 --> 00:29:08,866
should be led.

569
00:29:08,866 --> 00:29:11,356
They also, in many
ways, report to

570
00:29:11,356 --> 00:29:16,102
many masters, not just the
school board or the mayor.

571
00:29:16,102 --> 00:29:19,117
And in many ways,
we operate those

572
00:29:19,117 --> 00:29:21,790
organizations differently
than most of the voters in

573
00:29:21,790 --> 00:29:24,790
the city would anticipate
a large organization being

574
00:29:24,790 --> 00:29:27,959
operated so they're just
almost impossible jobs to

575
00:29:27,959 --> 00:29:30,692
have and so I'm not an
expert like the two of

576
00:29:30,692 --> 00:29:33,663
these folks on the law
enforcement element of

577
00:29:33,663 --> 00:29:36,479
it but the leadership
piece of it doesn't

578
00:29:36,479 --> 00:29:38,605
surprise me that we go
through police chiefs as

579
00:29:38,605 --> 00:29:40,642
quickly as we do the same
reason for the same reason

580
00:29:40,642 --> 00:29:42,396
we go through superintendents
as quickly as we do

581
00:29:42,396 --> 00:29:45,179
because we're waiting
for them to fail.

582
00:29:45,179 --> 00:29:48,817
We're not often giving them
opportunities to succeed.

583
00:29:48,817 --> 00:29:51,521
Well, and I think in Seattle,
and I don't have a lot of

584
00:29:51,521 --> 00:29:54,380
experience in other cities,
but people talk about what

585
00:29:54,380 --> 00:29:55,679
does the community want?

586
00:29:56,939 --> 00:29:59,617
Which one of the 50-some
different communities

587
00:29:59,617 --> 00:30:01,116
are we talking about?

588
00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:04,923
Because, and especially
now, the income disparity

589
00:30:04,923 --> 00:30:06,798
in Seattle is huge.

590
00:30:06,798 --> 00:30:10,720
And the wants of one community
are 100% in conflict

591
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,519
with the desires of
another community.

592
00:30:13,519 --> 00:30:16,919
How are you supposed to please
all of those communities?

593
00:30:16,919 --> 00:30:19,211
We have a criminal
justice system that is

594
00:30:19,211 --> 00:30:20,557
extremely problematic

595
00:30:21,576 --> 00:30:25,480
that the system hasn't
changed, and yet we talk

596
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,096
about police reform.

597
00:30:27,096 --> 00:30:29,298
Well, we need system reform.

598
00:30:29,298 --> 00:30:32,817
And so you put a police
chief in place and expect

599
00:30:32,817 --> 00:30:36,337
that chief to work magic
over a corrupt system.

600
00:30:36,337 --> 00:30:39,077
And by corrupt, I'm not
talking about the individuals.

601
00:30:39,077 --> 00:30:41,605
I'm talking about the
design of the system

602
00:30:41,605 --> 00:30:43,336
itself is very problematic.

603
00:30:43,336 --> 00:30:47,199
And so I think in Seattle, we
expect a lot of our leaders.

604
00:30:47,199 --> 00:30:50,721
And when they can't
deliver the magic, it's

605
00:30:50,721 --> 00:30:52,576
kind of not a surprise.

606
00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:01,077
And the same is true
of who the mayor is.

607
00:31:01,077 --> 00:31:04,179
I mean, Greg back there is
our last two-term mayor.

608
00:31:05,519 --> 00:31:06,896
And by the way, Greg, thank you.

609
00:31:06,896 --> 00:31:07,836
You did a good job.

610
00:31:10,959 --> 00:31:14,146
And so if you switch
mayors every four years or

611
00:31:14,146 --> 00:31:16,076
more frequently sometimes

612
00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:21,250
it doesn't allow the
organization to continue

613
00:31:21,250 --> 00:31:24,719
doing the really good
things and say no to the

614
00:31:24,719 --> 00:31:28,160
things that aren't working and
that same is true with a police

615
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,154
chief when you see the kind
of turnover we have in

616
00:31:31,154 --> 00:31:34,142
our police department,
and you think about the

617
00:31:34,142 --> 00:31:37,755
federal consent decree that
took 13 years to comply

618
00:31:37,755 --> 00:31:41,115
with, who's going to
carry that forward and

619
00:31:41,115 --> 00:31:43,077
make sure those reforms,

620
00:31:44,116 --> 00:31:48,459
which, by the way, aren't
all the reforms we need,

621
00:31:48,459 --> 00:31:52,798
that those reforms are
sustained and keep going?

622
00:31:52,798 --> 00:31:55,259
Because when you change
the police chief,

623
00:31:55,259 --> 00:31:57,278
just like when you
change the mayor,

624
00:31:57,278 --> 00:31:59,479
that person comes in
with their ideas,

625
00:31:59,479 --> 00:32:01,259
their approaches, whatever.

626
00:32:01,259 --> 00:32:02,919
They have to build
new relationships

627
00:32:02,919 --> 00:32:06,419
with all the people that
actually run the departments.

628
00:32:06,419 --> 00:32:07,759
And it's difficult.

629
00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:09,596
It's really difficult.

630
00:32:09,596 --> 00:32:11,836
Can I underscore just
what Tim said there?

631
00:32:11,836 --> 00:32:12,596
Just for the math.

632
00:32:12,596 --> 00:32:14,999
I mean, we had seven
mayors in 17 years,

633
00:32:14,999 --> 00:32:16,636
which is wild.

634
00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:19,336
And if we expect not just
the big picture stuff to

635
00:32:19,336 --> 00:32:21,896
work but the day-to-day
things that we talked

636
00:32:21,896 --> 00:32:23,880
about at the beginning of
this discussion that the

637
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,719
people in the mayor's
office will be experts on

638
00:32:25,719 --> 00:32:28,146
for example how to handle
a crisis situation and

639
00:32:28,146 --> 00:32:30,700
communicate effectively
there's not always a lot

640
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:32,634
of continuity between
those offices which means

641
00:32:32,634 --> 00:32:34,479
you get in and you're new
and you're learning it

642
00:32:34,479 --> 00:32:37,180
all over again and you're
building the relationships

643
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:39,577
all over again and so in
many ways we shouldn't

644
00:32:39,577 --> 00:32:42,336
be surprised probably that this
situation happened that it did

645
00:32:42,336 --> 00:32:45,194
at least from the mayor's office
perspective because they've

646
00:32:45,194 --> 00:32:47,471
only been there for what
eight months right and

647
00:32:47,471 --> 00:32:49,583
they're learning this
stuff and it's not

648
00:32:49,583 --> 00:32:51,537
something you learn from
a book you have to go

649
00:32:51,537 --> 00:32:53,872
through it and you haven't
been through it before

650
00:32:53,872 --> 00:32:56,403
you're going to make errors
it's a reality and one

651
00:32:56,403 --> 00:32:58,796
thing I hope we don't
lose sight of too in

652
00:32:58,796 --> 00:33:00,096
this whole situation.

653
00:33:00,096 --> 00:33:03,679
As I said earlier, the
police department performed

654
00:33:03,679 --> 00:33:06,136
very, very well in
this situation.

655
00:33:06,136 --> 00:33:09,356
And they performed very, very
well during the World Cup.

656
00:33:09,356 --> 00:33:13,636
And partly as a result
of the required training

657
00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:16,700
from the consent decree, the
Seattle Police Department

658
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:20,719
is a very, very talented,
good police department.

659
00:33:20,719 --> 00:33:23,719
And so we should be happy
that we have that--

660
00:33:23,719 --> 00:33:26,057
We at least have
that to work with.

661
00:33:26,057 --> 00:33:30,490
Now we need to find a chief
that can maximize the good

662
00:33:30,490 --> 00:33:34,719
skill and effectiveness
that they already have.

663
00:33:34,719 --> 00:33:36,057
Thanks for highlighting that.

664
00:33:36,057 --> 00:33:38,836
Let me ask you to elaborate
a little bit, and then

665
00:33:38,836 --> 00:33:41,336
I'll ask Benton to
elaborate on something.

666
00:33:41,336 --> 00:33:45,067
Each of you dropped a nugget
that is dear to my policy

667
00:33:45,067 --> 00:33:47,499
design and implementation heart

668
00:33:48,836 --> 00:33:51,146
due to my job at the Evans
School of Public Policy at

669
00:33:51,146 --> 00:33:54,819
the University of Washington,
you said that one of the

670
00:33:54,819 --> 00:33:59,895
challenges for any police
chief or law enforcement

671
00:33:59,895 --> 00:34:04,769
executive in the region is
that we have, you described

672
00:34:04,769 --> 00:34:06,679
the system as corrupt.

673
00:34:06,679 --> 00:34:09,789
Can you say a little bit
more about the ways, what do

674
00:34:09,789 --> 00:34:11,418
you mean by corrupt there?

675
00:34:11,418 --> 00:34:15,018
and what are the different
ways in which it's corrupt.

676
00:34:15,018 --> 00:34:17,498
And corrupt might not
be the right word,

677
00:34:17,498 --> 00:34:20,639
but it's what
screams in my mind.

678
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:22,159
The system was built.

679
00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:23,780
I mean, this is no
surprise to anybody.

680
00:34:23,780 --> 00:34:26,539
The system has been built
over hundreds of years,

681
00:34:26,539 --> 00:34:29,938
and it was designed to capture
people and bring them in

682
00:34:29,938 --> 00:34:32,777
and make it very difficult
for them to get out.

683
00:34:32,777 --> 00:34:37,978
And we talk about
more reform policing

684
00:34:37,978 --> 00:34:42,059
as if we're changing the system,
but the system still captures

685
00:34:42,059 --> 00:34:44,099
people and keeps them trapped.

686
00:34:44,099 --> 00:34:48,184
Dr. Alexes Harris at University
of Washington wrote a fantastic

687
00:34:48,184 --> 00:34:51,733
book called A Pound of Flesh,
and she is so clear about

688
00:34:51,733 --> 00:34:54,940
showing that once a
person is arrested and it

689
00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:58,210
goes through the system,
not only do they do in

690
00:34:58,210 --> 00:35:01,282
most cases some type
of incarceration, but

691
00:35:01,282 --> 00:35:04,440
they have fines and fees
piled on top of them.

692
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,054
And so when they are released
from incarceration, they can't

693
00:35:08,054 --> 00:35:11,739
just like go out and get their
driver's license renewed and get

694
00:35:11,739 --> 00:35:13,438
a job and find a place to live.

695
00:35:13,438 --> 00:35:15,259
All of those things are
taken away from them.

696
00:35:15,259 --> 00:35:18,393
So all of the things
in our economic system

697
00:35:18,393 --> 00:35:22,159
that allow people to be
successful are taken away.

698
00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:25,945
And it's very very difficult
to get those back and so

699
00:35:25,945 --> 00:35:29,380
we make moral judgments
about people that have

700
00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:32,208
gotten involved in the
system and then can't get

701
00:35:32,208 --> 00:35:35,179
out of it there are
organizations that exist

702
00:35:35,179 --> 00:35:38,887
for the sole purpose of
helping people get out of

703
00:35:38,887 --> 00:35:42,780
that trap uh the dad's
organization which

704
00:35:42,780 --> 00:35:45,800
I always talk about
whenever I can, Divine

705
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,960
Alternatives for Dads Services.

706
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,360
That was designed, I think, 25
years ago is when it started,

707
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,230
so that young men coming out of
prison could regain visitation

708
00:35:56,230 --> 00:35:59,744
and custody with their children
because social science tells

709
00:35:59,744 --> 00:36:02,152
us those bonds will help
prevent those kids from

710
00:36:02,152 --> 00:36:03,539
getting involved in crime.

711
00:36:03,539 --> 00:36:08,208
But this entire organization
exists just to help young men

712
00:36:08,208 --> 00:36:11,478
get out of all of those nasty
binds that are still on them.

713
00:36:11,478 --> 00:36:14,079
So you think about
college loan debt.

714
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:16,498
Imagine coming out of
prison with fine debt.

715
00:36:16,498 --> 00:36:19,954
And some of these fines
are, you know, between

716
00:36:19,954 --> 00:36:21,498
$5,000 and $50,000.

717
00:36:21,498 --> 00:36:25,447
If I came out of prison and I
had $5,000 owing and I couldn't

718
00:36:25,447 --> 00:36:29,018
get a job, I couldn't drive, I
couldn't find a place to live.

719
00:36:29,018 --> 00:36:32,771
Hell yes, I'd go sell drugs
so that I could get my fines

720
00:36:32,771 --> 00:36:34,818
paid so I could go see my kids.

721
00:36:34,818 --> 00:36:38,059
So I'm being a little
hyperbolic, but not that much.

722
00:36:38,059 --> 00:36:40,835
And until we change the
system, we're not going

723
00:36:40,835 --> 00:36:42,119
to change that cycle.

724
00:36:42,119 --> 00:36:46,195
But I think Seattle is
particularly good at the window

725
00:36:46,195 --> 00:36:48,277
dressing and the ideology.

726
00:36:48,277 --> 00:36:50,340
Let's dig into the system.

727
00:36:54,378 --> 00:36:56,099
That was eloquent.

728
00:36:56,099 --> 00:36:57,139
I haven't even had my wine yet.

729
00:36:58,518 --> 00:36:59,918
Let's get you wound
up, why don't we?

730
00:37:01,099 --> 00:37:03,059
So she mentioned Alexes Harris.

731
00:37:03,059 --> 00:37:05,730
I should also put in a plug
for my colleague Karen

732
00:37:05,730 --> 00:37:08,652
Martin at the Evans School
who does similar kind of

733
00:37:08,652 --> 00:37:11,559
work and sort of really
analyzed in great detail

734
00:37:11,559 --> 00:37:14,092
the way that fines and other
penalties stack up for

735
00:37:14,092 --> 00:37:15,599
people who are incarcerated.

736
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:18,518
The system is not designed
to rehabilitate people.

737
00:37:18,518 --> 00:37:22,360
It's not designed to
stop criminal behavior.

738
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:27,059
And we've got to fix that before
the rest of it gets better.

739
00:37:27,059 --> 00:37:31,090
And it's not designed to
help prisoners at the point

740
00:37:31,090 --> 00:37:33,340
of release to be successful.

741
00:37:33,340 --> 00:37:35,985
There's a lot of people
in Washington who have

742
00:37:35,985 --> 00:37:38,699
been arguing or suggesting
to the legislature

743
00:37:38,699 --> 00:37:42,197
and to the Department of
Corrections that anywhere

744
00:37:42,197 --> 00:37:45,226
from six to 12 months
before someone is going to

745
00:37:45,226 --> 00:37:48,306
be released from prison,
you should start developing

746
00:37:48,306 --> 00:37:51,699
a plan for that person so
they have a place to live.

747
00:37:51,699 --> 00:37:53,838
Ideally, they have a job.

748
00:37:53,838 --> 00:37:55,219
They have clothes.

749
00:37:55,219 --> 00:37:58,619
Not just the $40 that they
get and the bus ticket,

750
00:37:58,619 --> 00:38:01,914
but there's actually a plan,
and there's going to be

751
00:38:01,914 --> 00:38:04,003
somebody who walks with
them to make sure that

752
00:38:04,003 --> 00:38:05,039
they're successful.

753
00:38:05,039 --> 00:38:06,159
We don't do that.

754
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:08,338
And then we wonder why
we have recidivism,

755
00:38:09,418 --> 00:38:12,289
because people like Sue go
out and sell drugs when

756
00:38:12,289 --> 00:38:13,898
they can't pay their fines.

757
00:38:13,898 --> 00:38:15,679
I just want to see my kids.

758
00:38:18,318 --> 00:38:20,619
Ben, I was going
to switch topics.

759
00:38:20,619 --> 00:38:23,079
Did you want to add
anything on this issue?

760
00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:25,193
One of the other things
that's happened in this city,

761
00:38:25,193 --> 00:38:27,018
I would say particularly
in the last 10 years,

762
00:38:27,018 --> 00:38:29,500
is that we've increasingly
relied on our police

763
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:32,291
department, our fire department,
to be the last line of

764
00:38:32,291 --> 00:38:34,918
defense for other social ills
that we have not solved.

765
00:38:36,599 --> 00:38:37,619
And schools.

766
00:38:37,619 --> 00:38:39,844
And so I would say, as someone
who grew up in one of the

767
00:38:39,844 --> 00:38:42,380
communities that today we would
refer to as over-policed,

768
00:38:42,380 --> 00:38:43,942
which was Yesler Terrace
before it looked

769
00:38:43,942 --> 00:38:44,679
like it looks today,

770
00:38:46,858 --> 00:38:49,199
we're also not getting the
positive benefits of policing

771
00:38:49,199 --> 00:38:50,420
in those communities, right?

772
00:38:50,420 --> 00:38:52,297
So we're talking about the
end of the line, but there's

773
00:38:52,297 --> 00:38:53,300
also a beginning of the line.

774
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,498
And when I was a kid, we had a
neighborhood resource officer.

775
00:38:55,498 --> 00:38:56,659
His name was Officer Robinson.

776
00:38:56,659 --> 00:38:57,858
I love that guy.

777
00:38:57,858 --> 00:38:58,898
There was one in my school.

778
00:38:58,898 --> 00:39:00,920
is Officer Stuckey,
which some of you know

779
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,659
from his future in the
police department.

780
00:39:03,659 --> 00:39:07,099
But we had a positive
influence of SPD at that time.

781
00:39:07,099 --> 00:39:09,297
And I think that's one
of the other things

782
00:39:09,297 --> 00:39:12,739
that has been lost, not
only the active influence

783
00:39:12,739 --> 00:39:13,739
that's happened in
those communities,

784
00:39:13,739 --> 00:39:15,739
but also the debate
about whether or not

785
00:39:15,739 --> 00:39:19,059
we should be doing that,
largely being led from people

786
00:39:19,059 --> 00:39:21,380
who don't live in
those communities.

787
00:39:21,380 --> 00:39:23,998
And so it's important
to understand

788
00:39:23,998 --> 00:39:27,518
And we're on both
ends of the spectrum.

789
00:39:27,518 --> 00:39:29,259
We are losing that piece.

790
00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:36,320
This guy went to high school
at Garfield with my daughters.

791
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,639
And there was a same age.

792
00:39:38,639 --> 00:39:43,018
And they had a school
resource officer there.

793
00:39:43,018 --> 00:39:44,858
And the kids love this guy.

794
00:39:44,858 --> 00:39:46,219
- Mm-hmm.

795
00:39:46,219 --> 00:39:47,860
- Yeah.

796
00:39:47,860 --> 00:39:50,679
- Maybe this is what you were
alluding to earlier, Benton,

797
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:53,099
but I wanted to ask you in
particular what you meant

798
00:39:53,099 --> 00:39:55,838
when you said that
one of the reasons

799
00:39:55,838 --> 00:39:57,818
why being school
superintendent in Seattle

800
00:39:57,818 --> 00:40:02,239
or being a police chief
is hard is because we,

801
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:03,699
I forget exactly
how you said it,

802
00:40:03,699 --> 00:40:08,259
but I think you said we
run these two systems,

803
00:40:08,259 --> 00:40:12,103
public safety and public
schools differently in

804
00:40:12,103 --> 00:40:14,259
Seattle than other places?

805
00:40:15,498 --> 00:40:17,079
Do you remember what you said?

806
00:40:17,079 --> 00:40:19,911
Well, I think Sue actually
nailed it, right, is

807
00:40:19,911 --> 00:40:22,378
that we have a huge
number of communities

808
00:40:22,378 --> 00:40:25,139
all with different opinions on
how these systems should be run.

809
00:40:25,139 --> 00:40:29,193
And in many ways, the systems,
the debate that we have is

810
00:40:29,193 --> 00:40:32,445
driven by people who are
not as impacted by those

811
00:40:32,445 --> 00:40:35,398
systems as the folks who
are in the debate, right?

812
00:40:35,398 --> 00:40:37,498
And so I think it's
a real challenge.

813
00:40:37,498 --> 00:40:40,599
And one of the reasons I
flagged Sandeep's note was

814
00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:44,514
this long-running conversation
we've had between the concept

815
00:40:44,514 --> 00:40:46,139
of equity versus equality

816
00:40:47,358 --> 00:40:49,985
and the idea that if we have
a program that works but

817
00:40:49,985 --> 00:40:52,800
is really only working for
a certain number of people,

818
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,916
it's the program's fault and
not the system's fault, and

819
00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:58,900
that we should identify why
the system is not working.

820
00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:01,179
And the public school system is
a really good example of this.

821
00:41:01,179 --> 00:41:02,478
I was a highly capable student.

822
00:41:02,478 --> 00:41:05,054
And you may remember there
were only two black students

823
00:41:05,054 --> 00:41:07,463
in Katie's class that were
highly capable students

824
00:41:07,463 --> 00:41:08,639
at Garfield High School.

825
00:41:08,639 --> 00:41:11,119
That was not because the highly
capable program doesn't work.

826
00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:13,288
It was because there was
a systemic effort in the

827
00:41:13,288 --> 00:41:15,998
district to tell black students
don't go into that program.

828
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,880
Right. And so that was a thing
that needed to get fixed.

829
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,550
That's how we have to look
at the police department

830
00:41:23,550 --> 00:41:25,838
too but you as the leader
of that department

831
00:41:25,838 --> 00:41:29,264
will always have a really hard
time trying to make those

832
00:41:29,264 --> 00:41:33,179
kind of systemic changes in our
departments because a we don't

833
00:41:33,179 --> 00:41:36,679
really do big change very well
and b it takes too long

834
00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:38,789
And we refuse to wait
long enough to let those

835
00:41:38,789 --> 00:41:39,760
things take effect.

836
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,699
More than a four-year
election cycle.

837
00:41:44,978 --> 00:41:48,018
So for those of you who
are wondering who Sandeep

838
00:41:48,018 --> 00:41:51,135
is, Sandeep Kaushik is a
member of the Blocktable

839
00:41:51,135 --> 00:41:52,579
Executive Committee.

840
00:41:52,579 --> 00:41:56,619
And he also has a fabulous
new Substack post about the

841
00:41:56,619 --> 00:42:01,208
Seattle Public Schools and how
he thinks they lost their way

842
00:42:01,208 --> 00:42:03,320
over the last 10 or 15 years.

843
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,398
And a podcast.

844
00:42:05,398 --> 00:42:07,297
A couple of podcasts,
as a matter of fact.

845
00:42:07,297 --> 00:42:08,980
The guy is nothing
if not prolific.

846
00:42:10,777 --> 00:42:13,179
Thank you, Sandeep, for
your contributions to our

847
00:42:13,179 --> 00:42:14,440
knowledge on all fronts.

848
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,891
Let's switch gears and
dig into the future of

849
00:42:18,891 --> 00:42:21,539
public safety in Seattle.

850
00:42:23,018 --> 00:42:27,780
in particular sort of what are
some next steps for SPD and for

851
00:42:27,780 --> 00:42:32,255
our communities to reduce gun
violence and improve public

852
00:42:32,255 --> 00:42:36,619
safety the mayor has just issued
a plan today that it seeks to

853
00:42:36,619 --> 00:42:39,697
reduce gun violence there is
conversation in the city council

854
00:42:39,697 --> 00:42:41,119
about a another way to do that

855
00:42:43,898 --> 00:42:48,186
what are the each of you see as
sort of vital next steps for

856
00:42:48,186 --> 00:42:53,108
addressing gun violence in
the city and first

857
00:42:53,108 --> 00:42:58,744
and then let's talk about
SPD in particular I guess

858
00:42:58,744 --> 00:43:02,780
I'll go first when you
talk about gun violence,

859
00:43:02,780 --> 00:43:05,416
it's kind of like talking
about homelessness.

860
00:43:05,416 --> 00:43:06,699
They're both symptoms

861
00:43:07,838 --> 00:43:09,750
of a different problem.

862
00:43:09,750 --> 00:43:12,329
And so when I see
these headlines

863
00:43:12,329 --> 00:43:16,510
about what are we going to do
to reduce gun violence, which

864
00:43:16,510 --> 00:43:17,911
type of gun violence?

865
00:43:17,911 --> 00:43:21,179
Are we talking about
15-year-old boys with

866
00:43:21,179 --> 00:43:24,067
stolen firearms, are we talking
about domestic violence, are

867
00:43:24,067 --> 00:43:27,081
we talking about robberies,
things like that.

868
00:43:27,081 --> 00:43:30,891
And we're focused on
the system of these,

869
00:43:30,891 --> 00:43:36,255
and I think most people probably
go to the teenage boy with a

870
00:43:36,255 --> 00:43:41,460
firearm that can shoot tons and
tons of ammo and thankfully

871
00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:42,797
not usually hit anything.

872
00:43:43,858 --> 00:43:47,277
But what is it that
creates that situation?

873
00:43:47,277 --> 00:43:50,858
Why does that 15-year-old
boy have the gun?

874
00:43:50,858 --> 00:43:54,518
And what do we do when we
find a 15-year-old boy

875
00:43:54,518 --> 00:43:55,699
with a gun like that?

876
00:43:55,699 --> 00:43:58,940
I think most people know
it takes five convictions

877
00:44:00,219 --> 00:44:03,239
for illegal firearm
possession and use

878
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:07,878
before a juvenile is held in
custody more than 30 days.

879
00:44:07,878 --> 00:44:12,579
Now, I'm not saying that locking
somebody up is the only thing,

880
00:44:12,579 --> 00:44:17,199
because we know that deterrence
has limited effectiveness.

881
00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:20,579
It has a role, but it's
not the whole thing.

882
00:44:20,579 --> 00:44:23,960
But we wait until way,
way, way down the road

883
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:26,259
before we do a
massive intervention.

884
00:44:26,259 --> 00:44:29,849
And I think what several people
have talked or suggested on

885
00:44:29,849 --> 00:44:33,442
gun violence is as soon as you
find the 15-year-old kid with

886
00:44:33,442 --> 00:44:37,179
the illegal firearm, there
should be an all-hands-on-deck.

887
00:44:37,179 --> 00:44:38,518
There should be a case manager.

888
00:44:38,518 --> 00:44:42,222
There should be this massive
intervention in that kid's life

889
00:44:42,222 --> 00:44:45,418
to see what it would take to
get that kid back on track.

890
00:44:45,418 --> 00:44:46,797
That's not what we do.

891
00:44:46,797 --> 00:44:48,898
That's not how we manage it.

892
00:44:48,898 --> 00:44:51,335
and what is it that caused
that kid to be in that

893
00:44:51,335 --> 00:44:52,938
situation in the first place.

894
00:44:52,938 --> 00:44:57,360
So it's going to take many,
many different strategies

895
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,139
to reduce the level
of gun violence.

896
00:45:00,139 --> 00:45:02,940
I'm a little bit cynical
about gun control.

897
00:45:02,940 --> 00:45:05,858
It's like the flood
has happened.

898
00:45:05,858 --> 00:45:07,438
They are everywhere.

899
00:45:07,438 --> 00:45:10,697
And gun control alone is
not going to change the

900
00:45:10,697 --> 00:45:12,619
rate of firearms violence.

901
00:45:12,619 --> 00:45:15,552
we've got a lot of laws
on the books that we

902
00:45:15,552 --> 00:45:17,018
just don't enforce.

903
00:45:17,018 --> 00:45:18,659
And so I think we need to

904
00:45:18,659 --> 00:45:22,117
think about, okay, guns are
everywhere, then what do we do

905
00:45:22,117 --> 00:45:23,920
knowing that that's the case?

906
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:26,458
So I'll shut up and let
somebody else talk here.

907
00:45:26,458 --> 00:45:27,697
I could rant for hours.

908
00:45:27,697 --> 00:45:30,376
But again, gun violence
is a symptom, and we

909
00:45:30,376 --> 00:45:32,612
need to address it as a symptom.

910
00:45:32,612 --> 00:45:35,539
It's like, hey,
everybody's got a fever.

911
00:45:35,539 --> 00:45:38,166
Okay, well, we can bring the
fever down by giving people

912
00:45:38,166 --> 00:45:40,795
aspirin, but until we treat
the virus or the infection,

913
00:45:40,795 --> 00:45:42,280
it's going to keep coming back.

914
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,079
And all we're talking
about is the fever.

915
00:45:46,079 --> 00:45:50,099
I read the mayor's gun violence
reduction plan, and there's a

916
00:45:50,099 --> 00:45:54,119
couple of elements in it that I
think are really, really wise.

917
00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:57,567
She formed a relationship
between the University of

918
00:45:57,567 --> 00:46:01,719
Washington Injury Prevention
Center or whatever it's called.

919
00:46:03,998 --> 00:46:09,302
Back in 2012, 2013, that same
unit at Harborview, which

920
00:46:09,302 --> 00:46:14,952
analyzes gun victims and what
was happening when they were

921
00:46:14,952 --> 00:46:20,715
shot, developed a hospital
intervention program to reduce

922
00:46:20,715 --> 00:46:25,902
the likelihood that that
victim will then turn to guns

923
00:46:25,902 --> 00:46:28,440
to retaliate or whatever.

924
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,936
And that's very successful.

925
00:46:30,936 --> 00:46:33,847
So they've also
got Johns Hopkins

926
00:46:33,847 --> 00:46:35,824
University involved.

927
00:46:35,824 --> 00:46:38,840
And what Johns
Hopkins did, this is

928
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:44,039
like 10 years ago, they have
helped police departments form

929
00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:46,639
homicide advisory councils.

930
00:46:46,639 --> 00:46:49,068
Anybody want to be on
the Seattle Homicide

931
00:46:49,068 --> 00:46:50,179
Advisory Council?

932
00:46:50,179 --> 00:46:52,119
It's not how to
commit homicides.

933
00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:56,693
It's to look at homicide
cases after they're done

934
00:46:56,693 --> 00:47:00,802
from all the perspectives,
some of the ones that Sue's

935
00:47:00,802 --> 00:47:04,099
talking about, but also the
police investigative side.

936
00:47:04,099 --> 00:47:05,759
Did the police do
their job well?

937
00:47:05,759 --> 00:47:08,925
Did they do all the things
they should do to identify

938
00:47:08,925 --> 00:47:11,059
whoever committed that homicide?

939
00:47:11,059 --> 00:47:13,608
That's been very successful,
like in Baltimore

940
00:47:13,608 --> 00:47:14,818
and some other cities.

941
00:47:14,818 --> 00:47:16,297
So I was glad to see that.

942
00:47:16,297 --> 00:47:20,974
The other thing I saw was
Mayor Wilson has endorsed this

943
00:47:20,974 --> 00:47:23,719
concept of focused deterrence.

944
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:27,099
You know, the business
world, the 80-20 rule, 80%

945
00:47:27,099 --> 00:47:30,559
of your business comes from
20% of your customers.

946
00:47:30,559 --> 00:47:31,398
Guess what?

947
00:47:31,398 --> 00:47:33,599
That's true in policing, too.

948
00:47:33,599 --> 00:47:37,286
The actual number of people
who are committing terrible

949
00:47:37,286 --> 00:47:40,739
things in our city is really
relatively quite small.

950
00:47:40,739 --> 00:47:42,059
So it really works.

951
00:47:42,059 --> 00:47:43,175
It's proven.

952
00:47:43,175 --> 00:47:46,422
It's been examined
and had all kinds of

953
00:47:46,422 --> 00:47:48,958
research and control trials.

954
00:47:48,958 --> 00:47:53,655
If the police focus on the
individuals who are causing

955
00:47:53,655 --> 00:47:58,246
the most harm, they can, by
doing that, reduce some of

956
00:47:58,246 --> 00:48:02,835
the trauma, some of the gun
violence and other things

957
00:48:02,835 --> 00:48:04,820
that we see in our city.

958
00:48:04,820 --> 00:48:06,777
But it has to be more
than just the police.

959
00:48:06,777 --> 00:48:07,518
Oh, absolutely.

960
00:48:07,518 --> 00:48:08,806
It's super important.

961
00:48:08,806 --> 00:48:10,431
The police alone can't do it.

962
00:48:10,431 --> 00:48:12,327
And that's where the problematic

963
00:48:12,327 --> 00:48:15,646
relationship with the schools
and the police department,

964
00:48:15,646 --> 00:48:17,882
that relationship has
got to get fixed.

965
00:48:17,882 --> 00:48:20,047
If we're going to
address juvenile gun

966
00:48:20,047 --> 00:48:21,878
violence, that has to get fixed.

967
00:48:21,878 --> 00:48:25,722
So just for those of you that
aren't familiar with focus

968
00:48:25,722 --> 00:48:29,483
deterrence, it involves what
Tim was saying, but then

969
00:48:29,483 --> 00:48:33,159
about identifying the sort
of most frequent flyers.

970
00:48:33,159 --> 00:48:36,630
But then also what Sue wrapped
up with, which is then

971
00:48:36,630 --> 00:48:40,664
surrounding those frequent
flyers with offers of support,

972
00:48:40,664 --> 00:48:44,538
with clear threats of sanction,
should they continue to.

973
00:48:44,539 --> 00:48:46,478
But support and services.

974
00:48:46,478 --> 00:48:50,898
And that's why the school
has such a critical role.

975
00:48:50,898 --> 00:48:53,384
And there has to be a
cooperative working

976
00:48:53,384 --> 00:48:54,699
relationship there.

977
00:48:55,838 --> 00:49:00,306
I would be remiss if I didn't
recommend to you also Tim

978
00:49:00,306 --> 00:49:05,385
Burgess's occasional email
newsletter in which his latest

979
00:49:05,385 --> 00:49:10,159
post is about strategies to
reduce violence in Seattle.

980
00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:11,393
So thanks for that, Tim.

981
00:49:11,393 --> 00:49:12,811
I was joking with a couple of

982
00:49:12,811 --> 00:49:15,463
colleagues that this is one
of the first block table

983
00:49:15,463 --> 00:49:18,360
conversations where I felt
like I have daily homework in

984
00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:19,777
my inbox or in my headlines.

985
00:49:21,398 --> 00:49:24,159
Ben, what say you about reducing
gun violence in Seattle?

986
00:49:24,159 --> 00:49:27,018
Yeah, I mean, I agree with
Steve's point about which one.

987
00:49:27,018 --> 00:49:30,313
And I think my biggest takeaway
from what just happened

988
00:49:30,313 --> 00:49:33,538
here is that we clearly have
a serious problem with the

989
00:49:33,538 --> 00:49:35,400
youth gun violence in Seattle.

990
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,039
We may not actually have
a broader gun violence.

991
00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:38,998
The data, I'm not sure.

992
00:49:38,998 --> 00:49:41,559
But with youth gun
violence, certainly.

993
00:49:41,559 --> 00:49:45,039
And I'll just tell you, I
live in High Point now.

994
00:49:45,039 --> 00:49:48,195
And April of 2025, about
a few minutes before 10

995
00:49:48,195 --> 00:49:51,838
p.m., two people fired 74
bullets at each other in less

996
00:49:51,838 --> 00:49:55,239
than a minute in front of
my house, which is insane.

997
00:49:56,579 --> 00:49:57,898
And it's not unusual.

998
00:49:57,898 --> 00:49:59,179
Right, to think that
that's possible.

999
00:49:59,179 --> 00:49:59,898
They caught one of them.

1000
00:49:59,898 --> 00:50:00,539
He was 15.

1001
00:50:02,378 --> 00:50:03,199
And so.

1002
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:05,239
And guess what's going
to happen to him?

1003
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:07,041
Because I know, what that's
actually about to say

1004
00:50:07,041 --> 00:50:08,797
is I've seen him in the
neighborhood since then.

1005
00:50:08,797 --> 00:50:12,168
And so when I think about, I'm
not a public safety expert, but

1006
00:50:12,168 --> 00:50:15,199
I will say the police department
is the end of the line.

1007
00:50:15,199 --> 00:50:17,764
But it's also not just the
school district in the

1008
00:50:17,764 --> 00:50:19,239
world that we live in today.

1009
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,849
And one of the reasons why I
was actually really pleased

1010
00:50:21,849 --> 00:50:24,119
to hear in the mayor's
apology video she put out,

1011
00:50:24,119 --> 00:50:26,918
she talked about neighborhood
resource officers.

1012
00:50:26,918 --> 00:50:28,018
We don't just need officers.

1013
00:50:28,018 --> 00:50:29,721
We need other people in
the neighborhood who are

1014
00:50:29,721 --> 00:50:32,132
providing these resources
because much of the activity

1015
00:50:32,132 --> 00:50:34,398
with kids today happens
in the neighborhood.

1016
00:50:34,398 --> 00:50:36,838
It's not in the school
building, right?

1017
00:50:36,838 --> 00:50:39,831
We see the kids all over the
neighborhood on Lime scooters

1018
00:50:39,831 --> 00:50:42,760
and bikes and shooting off
fireworks in the playground.

1019
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:45,489
And if you want to shoot
off fireworks at 11 p.m.

1020
00:50:45,489 --> 00:50:47,378
in the playground, I don't care.

1021
00:50:47,378 --> 00:50:49,697
But it's a really good
opportunity for someone to go

1022
00:50:49,697 --> 00:50:52,338
out and introduce themselves
to you, right, and talk to you

1023
00:50:52,338 --> 00:50:53,739
about, hey, what are you doing?

1024
00:50:53,739 --> 00:50:54,739
What's going on in your world?

1025
00:50:54,739 --> 00:50:56,498
Can I be present in your life?

1026
00:50:57,759 --> 00:51:02,338
That's a thing I think we've
moved very much away from.

1027
00:51:02,338 --> 00:51:05,266
That's not a city or
public safety or school

1028
00:51:05,266 --> 00:51:08,438
district problem that's
more of a 2026 problem

1029
00:51:08,438 --> 00:51:11,260
but we've got to reverse
course on that right we

1030
00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:14,371
have to be physically present
in the lives of every kid

1031
00:51:14,371 --> 00:51:17,719
but particularly once we learn
that a kid has been engaged in

1032
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,358
an incident like this.

1033
00:51:20,358 --> 00:51:21,755
Thank you.

1034
00:51:21,755 --> 00:51:27,498
I want to open it up for
questions now from the

1035
00:51:27,498 --> 00:51:30,978
audience. I think we're
recording tonight so I'm gonna

1036
00:51:30,978 --> 00:51:34,494
repeat the question so that
we can get that on tape.

1037
00:51:34,494 --> 00:51:37,483
Thanks for your wisdom
this was great.

1038
00:51:37,483 --> 00:51:39,556
We'll give you a chance
to weigh in with

1039
00:51:39,556 --> 00:51:41,539
final thoughts before we wrap
up but let's turn to

1040
00:51:41,539 --> 00:51:44,184
the audience.

1041
00:51:44,184 --> 00:51:50,797
What is the role of
the city attorney

1042
00:51:50,797 --> 00:51:53,445
in all of this?

1043
00:51:53,445 --> 00:51:59,617
Significant. Could

1044
00:51:59,619 --> 00:52:00,853
you elaborate?

1045
00:52:00,853 --> 00:52:03,414
Well, I mean,
there's the law and

1046
00:52:03,414 --> 00:52:07,018
then there is what cases
are going to get filed

1047
00:52:07,018 --> 00:52:10,306
and what priority is going
to be given to cases.

1048
00:52:10,306 --> 00:52:12,500
And so I think the city attorney

1049
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:14,277
has a critical role to play.

1050
00:52:14,277 --> 00:52:17,759
And it's a little bit of an
anomaly in this country

1051
00:52:17,759 --> 00:52:22,818
that elected prosecutors,
elected attorneys,

1052
00:52:25,259 --> 00:52:28,099
answer to the voters
and that's it.

1053
00:52:28,099 --> 00:52:31,378
And so there's not a
lot of transparency

1054
00:52:31,378 --> 00:52:33,976
into what's behind the
decisions and I think it would

1055
00:52:33,976 --> 00:52:35,679
be really great
to have that kind

1056
00:52:35,679 --> 00:52:37,206
of transparency
about how are you

1057
00:52:37,206 --> 00:52:40,318
making filing decisions,
where do you draw the line.

1058
00:52:40,318 --> 00:52:42,018
Particularly, and
I'm gonna just step

1059
00:52:42,018 --> 00:52:45,436
into a big quagmire here,
human trafficking up

1060
00:52:45,436 --> 00:52:46,878
in North Aurora, folks.

1061
00:52:48,679 --> 00:52:53,219
That is horrendous.

1062
00:52:53,219 --> 00:52:57,679
The last data that I saw
showed that North Aurora

1063
00:52:57,679 --> 00:53:01,342
is the second busiest
prostitution corridor

1064
00:53:01,342 --> 00:53:02,500
in the nation.

1065
00:53:03,579 --> 00:53:07,277
It's open season because
of the inconsistency

1066
00:53:07,277 --> 00:53:10,518
about what enforcement is
going to be taken and not.

1067
00:53:10,518 --> 00:53:14,364
And this is a really
difficult situation where

1068
00:53:14,364 --> 00:53:16,139
you have the ideology

1069
00:53:17,398 --> 00:53:20,699
of young women should have
agency over their bodies

1070
00:53:20,699 --> 00:53:23,699
to do what they feel
they want to do.

1071
00:53:24,759 --> 00:53:28,418
But you've got troves of young
women who have lost their agency

1072
00:53:29,539 --> 00:53:32,277
to mental illness, to drugs.

1073
00:53:32,277 --> 00:53:36,539
This is not like Pretty Woman
where there were pimps.

1074
00:53:36,539 --> 00:53:38,958
These are violent gangs.

1075
00:53:38,958 --> 00:53:41,847
And what the gangs have
discovered is they can make more

1076
00:53:41,847 --> 00:53:44,786
money off of human
trafficking than they can on

1077
00:53:44,786 --> 00:53:46,797
selling drugs and guns.

1078
00:53:46,797 --> 00:53:47,918
Let that sit with you.

1079
00:53:47,918 --> 00:53:50,818
That's really horrendous.

1080
00:53:50,818 --> 00:53:53,867
And so when you talk about
surrounding somebody

1081
00:53:53,867 --> 00:53:56,838
with services, those
girls up in North Aurora,

1082
00:53:56,838 --> 00:53:59,436
It would just, if you were
to sit down and talk with

1083
00:53:59,436 --> 00:54:02,539
them, they won't talk to you
because they're too afraid to.

1084
00:54:02,539 --> 00:54:06,264
But that's the situation
where the law and the

1085
00:54:06,264 --> 00:54:10,478
prioritization of filing
cases is all over the map.

1086
00:54:10,478 --> 00:54:13,679
And as a result, it looks
like open season out there.

1087
00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:15,079
Pretty much anything goes.

1088
00:54:15,079 --> 00:54:17,277
And again, it's a
whole new world.

1089
00:54:17,277 --> 00:54:19,833
This is not like, you know,
when I was working the

1090
00:54:19,833 --> 00:54:22,579
street back in the 80s, you
know, we did John Patrol.

1091
00:54:22,579 --> 00:54:23,659
As a police officer.

1092
00:54:26,739 --> 00:54:30,039
Well, I was also working John
patrol, so you can look at...

1093
00:54:30,039 --> 00:54:33,139
But we were trying to catch
the Green River Killer.

1094
00:54:33,139 --> 00:54:38,539
But back in those days, the
business was run by pimps.

1095
00:54:38,539 --> 00:54:41,139
It's a completely
different ballgame now.

1096
00:54:41,139 --> 00:54:43,579
It's extremely violent.

1097
00:54:43,579 --> 00:54:45,938
And the gangs are treacherous.

1098
00:54:45,938 --> 00:54:49,463
And I think we have a lot
of people that put on their

1099
00:54:49,463 --> 00:54:53,501
ideological glasses and say,
you know, we cannot use the

1100
00:54:53,501 --> 00:54:57,539
law against these young women
because they are victims.

1101
00:54:57,539 --> 00:55:00,878
Yes, they are victims,
but they are trapped.

1102
00:55:00,878 --> 00:55:03,978
And they have, most of them
have lost their agency.

1103
00:55:03,978 --> 00:55:05,797
So it's a mess.

1104
00:55:05,797 --> 00:55:07,039
It's really a mess.

1105
00:55:08,679 --> 00:55:13,018
And on that happy note, let's
talk about gun violence again.

1106
00:55:13,018 --> 00:55:15,199
I want to answer the question
about the city attorney.

1107
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:17,659
So the city attorney does two
things that are important.

1108
00:55:17,659 --> 00:55:21,452
One, the city attorney and
the attorneys in her office

1109
00:55:21,452 --> 00:55:25,077
provide legal counsel to
all the city departments,

1110
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:29,710
from the mayor to SPU,
which does water and sewer

1111
00:55:29,710 --> 00:55:32,259
and garbage, everything.

1112
00:55:32,259 --> 00:55:36,818
Second, the city attorney is
the prosecutor of misdemeanor

1113
00:55:36,818 --> 00:55:39,099
crimes that occur in the city.

1114
00:55:39,099 --> 00:55:45,237
Misdemeanors can have a maximum
sentence of 364 days in jail.

1115
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,438
So think about shoplifting,
small amounts.

1116
00:55:49,438 --> 00:55:50,418
It's not a felony.

1117
00:55:50,418 --> 00:55:51,719
It's a misdemeanor.

1118
00:55:51,719 --> 00:55:53,079
Think about domestic violence.

1119
00:55:53,079 --> 00:55:56,753
The city attorney has a
very, very key role to play

1120
00:55:56,753 --> 00:56:00,786
in domestic violence where
the injuries perhaps were

1121
00:56:00,786 --> 00:56:04,728
not as significant to be a
felony, but we still need to

1122
00:56:04,728 --> 00:56:07,056
prosecute those individuals.

1123
00:56:07,059 --> 00:56:10,686
Or the county prosecutor that
takes felonies has declined

1124
00:56:10,686 --> 00:56:14,239
the case for some reason, so
it comes back to be prosecuted

1125
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:15,719
in the municipal court.

1126
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:19,235
So those two functions
are what the city

1127
00:56:19,235 --> 00:56:21,579
attorney does in Seattle.

1128
00:56:21,579 --> 00:56:24,317
And I think there's a lot
of people that think, oh,

1129
00:56:24,317 --> 00:56:25,719
it's just a misdemeanor.

1130
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:27,556
And I hear people say
that all the time.

1131
00:56:27,559 --> 00:56:28,898
Why are we bothering?

1132
00:56:28,898 --> 00:56:30,559
It's just a misdemeanor.

1133
00:56:30,559 --> 00:56:33,603
But when it's allowed to
just run rampant, I mean,

1134
00:56:33,603 --> 00:56:36,498
the shoplifting, the
organized retail theft,

1135
00:56:36,498 --> 00:56:39,938
is that's what really impacts
the quality of life on

1136
00:56:39,938 --> 00:56:43,059
the sidewalks throughout
the city of Seattle.

1137
00:56:43,059 --> 00:56:45,246
It was when I did my
little stint as the

1138
00:56:45,246 --> 00:56:48,420
interim chief, I was quite
surprised when I would walk

1139
00:56:48,420 --> 00:56:52,907
patrols with the officers and
watch how blatantly people

1140
00:56:52,907 --> 00:56:55,338
were selling stolen products.

1141
00:56:55,338 --> 00:56:57,898
And just, it's a
whole business cycle.

1142
00:56:57,898 --> 00:57:02,418
You have desperate people who
are fighting drug addiction,

1143
00:57:02,418 --> 00:57:05,099
going out with their shopping
list, stealing the stuff,

1144
00:57:05,099 --> 00:57:07,038
taking it to the fence,
getting their money,

1145
00:57:07,039 --> 00:57:08,378
go buying their drugs.

1146
00:57:08,378 --> 00:57:10,639
And it's a business cycle.

1147
00:57:10,639 --> 00:57:12,338
It's an absolute business cycle.

1148
00:57:13,478 --> 00:57:16,018
And if you have to
interrupt it somehow,

1149
00:57:16,018 --> 00:57:19,619
and, you know, diversion
programs don't work

1150
00:57:19,619 --> 00:57:23,079
in interrupting that
business cycle.

1151
00:57:23,079 --> 00:57:26,958
And one of the things that we
did when I was the interim is,

1152
00:57:26,958 --> 00:57:28,119
you know, I told my
officers, I said,

1153
00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:30,659
well, they're probably not
going to get prosecuted.

1154
00:57:30,659 --> 00:57:31,639
I said, I don't care.

1155
00:57:31,639 --> 00:57:33,639
Interrupt the business cycle.

1156
00:57:33,639 --> 00:57:36,159
Make it harder for the
fences and the drug dealers

1157
00:57:36,159 --> 00:57:39,559
and all the people that are
taking advantage of people

1158
00:57:39,559 --> 00:57:43,039
who are suffering from
substance use disorder.

1159
00:57:43,039 --> 00:57:45,878
You know, that's the army that's
being used to do all this work.

1160
00:57:45,878 --> 00:57:49,936
And they're victims too, but
they're also creating, you know,

1161
00:57:49,936 --> 00:57:53,759
the environment in the street
that feels terribly unsafe.

1162
00:57:53,759 --> 00:57:55,018
But it's just a misdemeanor.

1163
00:57:56,599 --> 00:57:58,079
Let's get a few more questions.

1164
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:00,199
Naomi? Yeah, hi.

1165
00:58:00,199 --> 00:58:01,559
Thank you so much for this.

1166
00:58:01,559 --> 00:58:03,719
I don't know how
you balance these.

1167
00:58:03,719 --> 00:58:04,898
So, thanks.

1168
00:58:04,898 --> 00:58:07,898
This is Naomi See from the Block
Table Executive Committee.

1169
00:58:07,898 --> 00:58:12,518
Thanks. Her question is, how
do we balance the kind of

1170
00:58:12,518 --> 00:58:17,556
systemic change that Sue in
particular has been eloquent

1171
00:58:17,556 --> 00:58:22,177
about, but that Benton and
Tim have preached as well,

1172
00:58:22,177 --> 00:58:26,481
with a need to actually
address current problems

1173
00:58:26,481 --> 00:58:28,579
in the short run as well?

1174
00:58:28,579 --> 00:58:32,184
Well, I think one of the things
is we have to get out of the

1175
00:58:32,184 --> 00:58:36,025
philosophical, ideological
frame of reference and start

1176
00:58:36,025 --> 00:58:38,139
talking in a more practical way.

1177
00:58:38,139 --> 00:58:41,646
And Tim and I, when we were
working together for a bit

1178
00:58:41,646 --> 00:58:45,398
there, we were focusing on
the booking process in jail.

1179
00:58:45,398 --> 00:58:49,818
Because there's a lot of people
that think it's an either or.

1180
00:58:49,818 --> 00:58:53,780
Either you arrest and
book people or you divert

1181
00:58:53,780 --> 00:58:57,538
them to treatment in my
fantasy world we

1182
00:58:57,539 --> 00:59:00,827
take advantage of the
authority of the government

1183
00:59:00,827 --> 00:59:04,039
to take people who have
lost their agency because

1184
00:59:04,039 --> 00:59:08,485
of substance use disorder and we
bring them into custody and we

1185
00:59:08,485 --> 00:59:12,181
get them connected with services
And so, and I'm going to

1186
00:59:12,181 --> 00:59:13,619
keep pounding this drum.

1187
00:59:13,619 --> 00:59:16,438
I didn't have enough
time when I was at SPD.

1188
00:59:16,438 --> 00:59:20,902
But we have a criminal justice
system that could be used as

1189
00:59:20,902 --> 00:59:25,088
an interceptor point where
we get folks off the street

1190
00:59:25,088 --> 00:59:27,320
and we bring them to the jail.

1191
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:31,159
And we stabilize them
in jail and say,

1192
00:59:31,159 --> 00:59:33,983
okay, if you are
immutable, first you've

1193
00:59:33,983 --> 00:59:36,411
got to get stabilized
because they're not going

1194
00:59:36,411 --> 00:59:38,452
to make good decisions
when all they're worried

1195
00:59:38,452 --> 00:59:39,978
about is avoiding withdrawal.

1196
00:59:39,978 --> 00:59:42,297
So we've got to hold them
for a couple of days.

1197
00:59:42,297 --> 00:59:47,318
What I would love to see is
post-booking but pre-charging.

1198
00:59:47,318 --> 00:59:49,579
So before they're
charged with a crime,

1199
00:59:49,579 --> 00:59:52,599
that's when I would like to see
them diverted into treatment

1200
00:59:52,599 --> 00:59:55,623
because we save a ton of
money if they don't go

1201
00:59:55,623 --> 00:59:58,791
through the charging and
prosecution process.

1202
00:59:58,791 --> 01:00:00,625
Take that savings and divert

1203
01:00:00,625 --> 01:00:02,458
that to the treatment piece.

1204
01:00:02,458 --> 01:00:05,884
Many people are sort of
purists and they say no people

1205
01:00:05,884 --> 01:00:08,922
have to make the decision
to go into treatment.

1206
01:00:08,922 --> 01:00:12,277
That is not my experience
with family members, with

1207
01:00:12,277 --> 01:00:14,443
friends, and talking to experts.

1208
01:00:14,443 --> 01:00:17,380
Yes you can mandate
treatment you just have

1209
01:00:17,380 --> 01:00:19,619
to be very, very
persistent about it.

1210
01:00:19,619 --> 01:00:22,659
And I've had friends that
have been through this.

1211
01:00:22,659 --> 01:00:26,398
And I think that it's a myth
that people have to choose.

1212
01:00:26,398 --> 01:00:28,139
Now, ultimately,
they have to choose.

1213
01:00:28,139 --> 01:00:29,318
But you've got to
get them to a place

1214
01:00:29,318 --> 01:00:31,679
where they're thinking clearly
before they can choose.

1215
01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:35,438
So that's one example of a
systemic change I would make.

1216
01:00:35,438 --> 01:00:38,539
We don't have to choose
between diversion and arrest.

1217
01:00:38,539 --> 01:00:40,179
We can do both.

1218
01:00:40,179 --> 01:00:44,338
And the outcome doesn't need to
be a charge and a conviction.

1219
01:00:44,338 --> 01:00:47,478
The outcome should be, did
the person stop the behavior?

1220
01:00:48,918 --> 01:00:50,985
Excellent question,
Naomi, because that's

1221
01:00:50,985 --> 01:00:51,878
a false dichotomy.

1222
01:00:52,998 --> 01:00:54,099
Absolutely false.

1223
01:00:54,099 --> 01:00:57,199
We should be focused on what's
best for the common good.

1224
01:00:57,199 --> 01:00:59,802
That's for the individual
and then the rest

1225
01:00:59,802 --> 01:01:00,958
of society as well.

1226
01:01:00,958 --> 01:01:03,079
And that's just pragmatic stuff.

1227
01:01:03,079 --> 01:01:03,858
What's going to work?

1228
01:01:03,858 --> 01:01:05,846
What's going to help?

1229
01:01:05,846 --> 01:01:09,708
And this ideological
fight is damaging to

1230
01:01:09,708 --> 01:01:15,338
our city because it interrupts
the ability to make progress.

1231
01:01:15,338 --> 01:01:18,324
I would just note, I think
that the immediate action is

1232
01:01:18,324 --> 01:01:21,179
part of the systemic change
most of the time, right?

1233
01:01:21,179 --> 01:01:24,610
You cannot say I'm not
going to do anything until

1234
01:01:24,610 --> 01:01:26,239
I fully fix the system.

1235
01:01:26,239 --> 01:01:29,132
Right. And I think about
homelessness when we worked on

1236
01:01:29,132 --> 01:01:32,275
this when I was in the mayor's
office, that the act of sending

1237
01:01:32,275 --> 01:01:35,547
out navigation teams and pushing
people to come inside is part

1238
01:01:35,547 --> 01:01:37,119
of solving the overall issue.

1239
01:01:37,119 --> 01:01:40,820
And if you're not doing both of
those things, you're just going

1240
01:01:40,820 --> 01:01:44,237
to basically skip a generation
of homeless people and let

1241
01:01:44,237 --> 01:01:46,159
them exist on the street, right?

1242
01:01:46,159 --> 01:01:50,172
And so I do think one of the
areas, though, where the

1243
01:01:50,172 --> 01:01:54,666
politics does come into play
on that is that when often we

1244
01:01:54,666 --> 01:01:59,351
take a policy, say, through the
council and say we're going

1245
01:01:59,351 --> 01:02:03,748
to stop funding programs that
don't work, we have a hard

1246
01:02:03,748 --> 01:02:06,139
time often getting that done.

1247
01:02:06,139 --> 01:02:09,670
And so that is where really we
put a brake on the systemic

1248
01:02:09,670 --> 01:02:12,739
part of it and have to
focus on the immediate part

1249
01:02:12,739 --> 01:02:16,039
because we're not getting
the systemic piece done.

1250
01:02:16,039 --> 01:02:18,742
And I think that ends up being
where the politics of it come

1251
01:02:18,742 --> 01:02:21,556
into play, when in reality we
need to do both of these things.

1252
01:02:23,259 --> 01:02:26,679
Lots and lots of questions, but
you have been very patient.

1253
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:28,759
I'm going to come up to the
microphone because I can't yell.

1254
01:02:31,018 --> 01:02:32,739
Tell us who you are also.

1255
01:02:32,739 --> 01:02:33,699
Hi, everybody.

1256
01:02:33,699 --> 01:02:35,079
Hi, I'm Jen Lemaster.

1257
01:02:35,079 --> 01:02:38,277
I am representative of
the Convention Center,

1258
01:02:38,277 --> 01:02:39,719
and I just wanted
to make a comment.

1259
01:02:39,719 --> 01:02:40,659
And a rock star.

1260
01:02:40,659 --> 01:02:41,619
Oh, thank you.

1261
01:02:41,619 --> 01:02:43,331
And I just wanted to
make a comment to your

1262
01:02:43,331 --> 01:02:46,036
earlier question, Steve,
where you asked the panel,

1263
01:02:46,036 --> 01:02:47,777
did age or gender play a role?

1264
01:02:47,777 --> 01:02:49,717
And I'm going to ask a question,
but this is just an aside.

1265
01:02:50,797 --> 01:02:53,179
I would just challenge
you on this statement.

1266
01:02:53,179 --> 01:02:56,038
This entire community has
rallied around Mike Macdonald,

1267
01:02:56,039 --> 01:02:58,956
and he's 39 years old,
and the words that we

1268
01:02:58,956 --> 01:03:02,184
use to describe him are
energetic and passionate

1269
01:03:02,184 --> 01:03:04,800
and willing to do things
that are different and

1270
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,887
with this mayor who's 44
years old I don't know

1271
01:03:06,887 --> 01:03:10,514
how old she was she's like I
guess 42 she's inexperienced

1272
01:03:10,514 --> 01:03:15,179
unprofessional etc you don't
have to take my word for it I'm

1273
01:03:15,179 --> 01:03:17,547
not defending her use your
AI agent and ask him to

1274
01:03:17,547 --> 01:03:19,797
collate the most popular
things that are said

1275
01:03:19,797 --> 01:03:22,315
about those two things and
there's no question that

1276
01:03:22,315 --> 01:03:24,599
gender has played into
the way we've evaluated

1277
01:03:24,599 --> 01:03:28,188
experience. That being said,
that is not my question.

1278
01:03:28,188 --> 01:03:29,545
My question for you.

1279
01:03:29,545 --> 01:03:31,858
Oh, well, would you
like a soapbox?

1280
01:03:31,858 --> 01:03:32,268
I would.

1281
01:03:32,268 --> 01:03:32,679
I would.

1282
01:03:32,679 --> 01:03:33,443
I would like to.

1283
01:03:33,443 --> 01:03:34,849
Can I have your seat, please?

1284
01:03:34,849 --> 01:03:36,081
No, no, I'm just kidding.

1285
01:03:36,081 --> 01:03:37,137
No, I'm just kidding.

1286
01:03:37,139 --> 01:03:39,831
What I wanted to say is
that I represent the

1287
01:03:39,831 --> 01:03:43,217
convention and tourism
industry, obviously, and we

1288
01:03:43,219 --> 01:03:46,797
have bookings in the
convention center through 2040.

1289
01:03:46,797 --> 01:03:48,759
So I live in the future.

1290
01:03:48,759 --> 01:03:50,958
And I invite you to
live there with me.

1291
01:03:50,958 --> 01:03:52,739
Because that's where
our customers live.

1292
01:03:52,739 --> 01:03:54,818
And that's why I live there.

1293
01:03:54,818 --> 01:03:59,039
And so my question to the panel
is, we spend so much time

1294
01:03:59,039 --> 01:04:03,978
talking about public
safety as a crime problem.

1295
01:04:03,978 --> 01:04:07,938
But I see it as an
economic engine.

1296
01:04:07,938 --> 01:04:10,878
It is economic infrastructure.

1297
01:04:10,878 --> 01:04:14,045
And I just spent last week
visiting 25 customers who

1298
01:04:14,045 --> 01:04:16,547
are currently booked
in Seattle and D.C.

1299
01:04:16,547 --> 01:04:17,358
and Chicago.

1300
01:04:17,358 --> 01:04:19,759
So clutch your pearls, okay?

1301
01:04:19,759 --> 01:04:24,458
They are concerned about safety
in Seattle in those two areas.

1302
01:04:24,458 --> 01:04:29,916
And I'm just curious what we can
do differently to get elected

1303
01:04:29,916 --> 01:04:32,699
officials to get beyond crime.

1304
01:04:32,699 --> 01:04:33,518
It is a problem.

1305
01:04:33,518 --> 01:04:34,219
I agree with you.

1306
01:04:34,219 --> 01:04:34,998
I live in town.

1307
01:04:34,998 --> 01:04:35,619
I live downtown.

1308
01:04:35,619 --> 01:04:38,905
I have a downtown zip code
and my personal address as

1309
01:04:38,905 --> 01:04:40,739
well as my business address.

1310
01:04:40,739 --> 01:04:43,436
It is what I'm going to do
to get elected officials to

1311
01:04:43,436 --> 01:04:46,760
understand that this is economic
infrastructure for our city.

1312
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,599
And if we don't fix it,
we're losing business.

1313
01:04:49,599 --> 01:04:53,188
Case in point, I've lost
50,000 room nights in 2027

1314
01:04:53,188 --> 01:04:56,777
from three events that have
pulled out of Seattle.

1315
01:04:56,777 --> 01:05:00,034
And they have paid $500,000
in liquidated damages to

1316
01:05:00,034 --> 01:05:03,659
go to another city because
they're concerned about crime.

1317
01:05:04,797 --> 01:05:07,099
So this is not a
perceived problem.

1318
01:05:07,099 --> 01:05:10,340
This is a very real problem,
and our mayor and our executive

1319
01:05:10,340 --> 01:05:13,119
are standing on the picket
line with the hoteliers

1320
01:05:13,119 --> 01:05:14,797
because they don't understand.

1321
01:05:14,797 --> 01:05:15,539
So I need help.

1322
01:05:15,539 --> 01:05:16,938
I don't know how else to do it.

1323
01:05:16,938 --> 01:05:17,398
Thank you.

1324
01:05:19,579 --> 01:05:22,599
Is this a follow-up or
a separate question?

1325
01:05:22,599 --> 01:05:22,858
Follow-up.

1326
01:05:24,099 --> 01:05:25,297
Oh, okay.

1327
01:05:25,297 --> 01:05:26,297
I'll come back to you.

1328
01:05:26,297 --> 01:05:27,219
I was taking friends.

1329
01:05:27,219 --> 01:05:27,619
I'm sorry.

1330
01:05:29,958 --> 01:05:33,422
One of the best things
to address Jen's

1331
01:05:33,422 --> 01:05:35,699
question is cops matter.

1332
01:05:35,699 --> 01:05:40,804
So if you go to cities
in Europe, here in North

1333
01:05:40,804 --> 01:05:46,737
America, in New York City,
back, this is dangerous.

1334
01:05:46,739 --> 01:05:51,518
When Giuliani still
was somewhat sane.

1335
01:05:51,518 --> 01:05:53,438
Was he ever free?

1336
01:05:53,438 --> 01:05:59,119
You could go to Times Square,
which had a real problem,

1337
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:02,083
and on every single
block you'll see two or

1338
01:06:02,083 --> 01:06:03,777
three police officers.

1339
01:06:03,777 --> 01:06:05,259
We can't do that in Seattle.

1340
01:06:05,259 --> 01:06:08,659
We can't put police officers
around the convention center

1341
01:06:08,659 --> 01:06:11,764
or down on the waterfront
at that level because

1342
01:06:11,764 --> 01:06:13,197
we're over 300 short.

1343
01:06:13,199 --> 01:06:15,704
And so if you're that
short, they're going to

1344
01:06:15,704 --> 01:06:18,838
prioritize responding
to 911 calls

1345
01:06:18,838 --> 01:06:20,619
and other emergencies.

1346
01:06:20,619 --> 01:06:22,940
That's why you saw that
business letter from

1347
01:06:22,940 --> 01:06:26,311
Seattle business leaders
asking for foot patrols

1348
01:06:26,311 --> 01:06:29,898
and bike patrols back
in downtown Seattle.

1349
01:06:29,898 --> 01:06:33,550
And that's going to be hard
to do because we're so

1350
01:06:33,550 --> 01:06:35,559
short of police officers.

1351
01:06:35,559 --> 01:06:39,362
Their presence alone, not
making arrests or doing

1352
01:06:39,362 --> 01:06:42,891
anything like that, is a
huge deterrent to both

1353
01:06:42,891 --> 01:06:47,418
disorder, maybe not criminal,
but also criminal behavior.

1354
01:06:51,478 --> 01:06:51,739
Yeah.

1355
01:06:54,978 --> 01:06:56,219
Well, I'll just...

1356
01:06:56,219 --> 01:06:57,958
Can I repeat the
question briefly?

1357
01:06:57,958 --> 01:07:01,588
So the question is about the
Law Enforcement Assisted

1358
01:07:01,588 --> 01:07:05,460
Diversion Program that we've
referred to as LEAD up here.

1359
01:07:05,460 --> 01:07:08,820
And the question is that
Sue, earlier in your

1360
01:07:08,820 --> 01:07:12,818
remarks, said that there was
sort of a piece missing.

1361
01:07:12,818 --> 01:07:17,793
And the question is, how is
it missing and are there ways

1362
01:07:17,793 --> 01:07:22,876
that it could be added in
without sort of doing injustice

1363
01:07:22,876 --> 01:07:25,579
to the way that LEAD operates?

1364
01:07:25,579 --> 01:07:27,998
So I'll paint a pretend picture.

1365
01:07:27,998 --> 01:07:31,947
And I saw this happen so many
times where an officer on foot

1366
01:07:31,947 --> 01:07:36,143
patrol encounters a person in
the fentanyl, you know, leaned

1367
01:07:36,143 --> 01:07:38,038
over, clearly in distress.

1368
01:07:39,297 --> 01:07:43,041
They have been openly smoking
fentanyl in the middle

1369
01:07:43,041 --> 01:07:46,358
of a tourist corridor,
and people are alarmed.

1370
01:07:46,358 --> 01:07:48,199
And they have no interest.

1371
01:07:48,199 --> 01:07:51,402
We can, LEAD can give them a
referral card and all that,

1372
01:07:51,402 --> 01:07:54,538
but they're not necessarily
going to leave the area.

1373
01:07:54,539 --> 01:07:55,759
They're going to
just stay there.

1374
01:07:56,818 --> 01:07:59,608
In my world, that person
has made the decision,

1375
01:07:59,608 --> 01:08:01,039
I'm not going to do that.

1376
01:08:01,039 --> 01:08:04,563
Well, then we're going to
give you a free ride to the

1377
01:08:04,563 --> 01:08:07,918
King County Jail where you
are going to be put in a

1378
01:08:07,918 --> 01:08:11,777
place where you have a couple
of days to get stabilized.

1379
01:08:11,777 --> 01:08:13,878
And we're going to ask
you again if you want

1380
01:08:13,878 --> 01:08:15,079
to engage in treatment.

1381
01:08:15,079 --> 01:08:18,529
What happens now if we take
that person to jail is they

1382
01:08:18,529 --> 01:08:20,256
get declined for booking.

1383
01:08:20,259 --> 01:08:23,037
And then they get shuttled
over to Harborview Hospital.

1384
01:08:23,037 --> 01:08:25,582
A police officer, one
of our very few police

1385
01:08:25,582 --> 01:08:28,694
officers, is tied up for
about six hours because they

1386
01:08:28,694 --> 01:08:30,179
have to go to Harborview.

1387
01:08:30,179 --> 01:08:33,377
They interrupt the business
at the emergency room.

1388
01:08:33,377 --> 01:08:35,537
They have to be evaluated
by a physician.

1389
01:08:35,537 --> 01:08:37,639
And it's just it's a
long, drawn-out process.

1390
01:08:37,639 --> 01:08:40,778
They come back to jail,
and then are released

1391
01:08:40,778 --> 01:08:42,559
most likely the next day.

1392
01:08:42,559 --> 01:08:44,957
Horrendous waste of
everybody's time and money.

1393
01:08:44,957 --> 01:08:47,658
It doesn't help the person.

1394
01:08:47,658 --> 01:08:50,939
I had so many police
officers say to me,

1395
01:08:50,939 --> 01:08:55,256
Chief, I have this moral
conflict in my soul.

1396
01:08:55,256 --> 01:08:58,287
I know that this person is not
going to take the card given by

1397
01:08:58,287 --> 01:08:59,899
the LEAD intervention person.

1398
01:08:59,899 --> 01:09:00,938
They're not going
to make the call.

1399
01:09:00,939 --> 01:09:01,917
They're not going to do that.

1400
01:09:01,917 --> 01:09:05,224
And I'm going to drive
away and leave them there

1401
01:09:05,224 --> 01:09:06,917
to die or be victimized.

1402
01:09:06,917 --> 01:09:09,377
How can I as a police
officer live with myself?

1403
01:09:09,377 --> 01:09:13,059
And we ask them to do this
day after day after day.

1404
01:09:13,059 --> 01:09:16,434
But I really believe we
have the opportunity to

1405
01:09:16,434 --> 01:09:19,783
make the King County Jail,
and I'm sure people at King

1406
01:09:19,783 --> 01:09:24,380
County will want to shoot me,
But there is a tremendous

1407
01:09:24,380 --> 01:09:27,256
opportunity to do good.

1408
01:09:27,256 --> 01:09:31,453
So bring the services that
LEAD has and bring some

1409
01:09:31,453 --> 01:09:33,399
of those into the jail.

1410
01:09:33,399 --> 01:09:36,194
Yes, you still have folks
in the street, but there's

1411
01:09:36,194 --> 01:09:39,059
many, many people in the
street that will not engage.

1412
01:09:39,059 --> 01:09:42,318
And I don't think it's okay to
just leave them on the street.

1413
01:09:42,318 --> 01:09:43,877
I just don't think that's right.

1414
01:09:45,099 --> 01:09:45,417
Go ahead.

1415
01:09:48,599 --> 01:09:51,738
I guess, yeah, we probably
have to talk in more detail.

1416
01:09:51,738 --> 01:09:55,344
I'm talking about getting
the person's body off the

1417
01:09:55,344 --> 01:09:57,358
street into a safe facility.

1418
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:04,238
I want to push a little bit more
on this systemic change issue.

1419
01:10:04,238 --> 01:10:07,359
I think there's, and
the starting earlier, I

1420
01:10:07,359 --> 01:10:10,479
think a lot of people are
not aware that at 13,

1421
01:10:10,479 --> 01:10:14,676
parents lose the opportunity
to control or direct

1422
01:10:14,679 --> 01:10:16,377
or know anything
about children's

1423
01:10:16,377 --> 01:10:16,917
mental health care

1424
01:10:18,118 --> 01:10:22,479
at 13 you can no longer your
child's therapist can no

1425
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:26,399
if they have one can no
longer talk to you without

1426
01:10:26,399 --> 01:10:28,497
the child's permission 13

1427
01:10:29,997 --> 01:10:32,719
if you're very involved
there's some laws that changed

1428
01:10:32,719 --> 01:10:36,198
recently so we lose
early

1429
01:10:36,198 --> 01:10:39,966
opportunities. And then,
Sue, you talked about a

1430
01:10:39,966 --> 01:10:41,161
couple of days.

1431
01:10:41,161 --> 01:10:43,457
Some of you in this room know my

1432
01:10:43,457 --> 01:10:47,711
dead daughter story, which
I will not go into here.

1433
01:10:47,711 --> 01:10:51,555
But a couple of days for
someone who is on meth,

1434
01:10:51,559 --> 01:10:52,599
Oh, I...

1435
01:10:52,599 --> 01:10:54,099
It's not enough.

1436
01:10:54,099 --> 01:10:55,377
But it's a start.

1437
01:10:55,377 --> 01:10:56,559
No, it's not.

1438
01:10:56,559 --> 01:11:00,796
Because they come out
with a phone number.

1439
01:11:00,796 --> 01:11:03,296
So they say, well, we
have a treatment plan.

1440
01:11:03,296 --> 01:11:04,719
We gave you a phone number.

1441
01:11:04,719 --> 01:11:07,497
But you came out
desperate to get high.

1442
01:11:07,497 --> 01:11:09,639
And so much of this, we're
talking about the city,

1443
01:11:09,639 --> 01:11:12,698
we're throwing a lot of
crap at Katie's feet.

1444
01:11:12,698 --> 01:11:14,219
She's been there eight months.

1445
01:11:14,219 --> 01:11:16,497
She's not 42 and now 44.

1446
01:11:16,497 --> 01:11:18,939
Like, she's been
there eight months.

1447
01:11:18,939 --> 01:11:19,779
That's right.

1448
01:11:21,279 --> 01:11:23,238
But let me...

1449
01:11:23,238 --> 01:11:24,917
Some of this is at
the state level.

1450
01:11:24,917 --> 01:11:27,877
We've got to change the state's
Involuntary Commitment Act.

1451
01:11:27,877 --> 01:11:30,069
And Tim, you wrote
recently about what

1452
01:11:30,069 --> 01:11:31,439
San Francisco has done.

1453
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:33,158
There are two deputy
mayors in this room

1454
01:11:33,158 --> 01:11:34,979
that I have had
conversations with

1455
01:11:34,979 --> 01:11:38,279
begging for the Involuntary
Commitment Act to be changed

1456
01:11:39,359 --> 01:11:42,595
because we've got to
hold people for longer.

1457
01:11:42,599 --> 01:11:44,738
And I am wondering
if there is

1458
01:11:44,738 --> 01:11:46,760
anybody who is in the
business community or

1459
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:47,939
anyone on the community.

1460
01:11:47,939 --> 01:11:49,398
Steve, will you take control?

1461
01:11:49,399 --> 01:11:50,796
This is that question.

1462
01:11:50,796 --> 01:11:51,439
I have to say that.

1463
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:52,779
Speeches, please.

1464
01:11:55,439 --> 01:12:02,578
One thing I just want to clarify
is I'm not suggesting that we,

1465
01:12:02,578 --> 01:12:05,252
I'm not talking about
bringing them into the

1466
01:12:05,252 --> 01:12:07,555
jail for a couple of days
and then kicking them out.

1467
01:12:07,559 --> 01:12:10,417
I'm talking about using that
time in the jail to do,

1468
01:12:10,417 --> 01:12:12,018
I think the term
is warm handoff.

1469
01:12:12,019 --> 01:12:14,261
They go to a program
where they have a place

1470
01:12:14,261 --> 01:12:15,478
to live that's secure.

1471
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:16,658
But it's got to be involuntary.

1472
01:12:16,658 --> 01:12:18,578
And my question is, thank you.

1473
01:12:18,578 --> 01:12:18,957
I have a question.

1474
01:12:18,957 --> 01:12:19,417
Thank you.

1475
01:12:21,997 --> 01:12:24,497
She has a question.

1476
01:12:24,497 --> 01:12:25,479
Better ask the question.

1477
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,618
I think you're right about the
state involuntary commitment.

1478
01:12:28,618 --> 01:12:29,279
Yes, I agree.

1479
01:12:29,279 --> 01:12:31,399
It's very, very difficult.

1480
01:12:32,559 --> 01:12:37,085
And the representative
from 32nd district I'm

1481
01:12:37,085 --> 01:12:41,957
missing her name yeah Lauren
Lauren yes but what's

1482
01:12:41,957 --> 01:12:46,688
her last name Davis yes
representative Davis has

1483
01:12:46,688 --> 01:12:50,841
tried in the legislature
and the community

1484
01:12:50,841 --> 01:12:53,658
that's affected by that,
whether it's the mental health

1485
01:12:53,658 --> 01:12:55,095
community or whatever, just

1486
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:57,895
rushes down to say no.

1487
01:12:57,895 --> 01:12:59,756
And so it's very, very hard.

1488
01:12:59,756 --> 01:13:01,537
But we should keep trying.

1489
01:13:01,537 --> 01:13:05,139
Because there are people on
our streets today who are

1490
01:13:05,139 --> 01:13:06,774
going to literally die.

1491
01:13:06,774 --> 01:13:07,020
And

1492
01:13:08,417 --> 01:13:11,051
I know police officers have
asked for the county's

1493
01:13:11,051 --> 01:13:14,225
mental health professionals
to come and do an assessment,

1494
01:13:14,225 --> 01:13:17,328
they come and look, say
nope, not qualified,

1495
01:13:17,328 --> 01:13:18,877
so can't take them.

1496
01:13:18,877 --> 01:13:21,037
It's tough.

1497
01:13:21,037 --> 01:13:23,519
- Yeah, David.

1498
01:13:23,519 --> 01:13:26,877
- Yeah, so to make
this wild allegation

1499
01:13:26,877 --> 01:13:30,417
that we have ideologues
in the city.

1500
01:13:30,417 --> 01:13:34,359
- I know, I know, it's kinda
hyperbolic, I'm sorry.

1501
01:13:34,359 --> 01:13:36,917
- I won't blame Steve
and his colleagues

1502
01:13:36,917 --> 01:13:42,372
at the UW entirely for this,
But short of closing down the

1503
01:13:42,372 --> 01:13:45,719
universities, what can we do?

1504
01:13:45,719 --> 01:13:50,345
Benton, you talked about
the advocacy folks that

1505
01:13:50,345 --> 01:13:54,975
build City Hall when we
try to hold organizations

1506
01:13:54,975 --> 01:13:57,457
accountable to outcomes.

1507
01:13:57,457 --> 01:14:03,599
How can we turn the tide
on this habit in Seattle?

1508
01:14:04,636 --> 01:14:11,363
So the question is, does the
panel have any good ideas

1509
01:14:11,363 --> 01:14:18,850
about how to turn the tide or
tame the ideological advocacy

1510
01:14:18,850 --> 01:14:21,756
in the city of Seattle?

1511
01:14:23,457 --> 01:14:27,488
Strong leadership I think
one of the ages yeah I think

1512
01:14:27,488 --> 01:14:30,720
one of the biggest challenges
and this is not unique

1513
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:32,716
to Seattle I think you
mentioned before I work

1514
01:14:32,716 --> 01:14:34,875
for Vigor Marine Group which is
actually based in Portland

1515
01:14:34,875 --> 01:14:36,819
which has a bigger leadership
problem than we have here

1516
01:14:37,877 --> 01:14:40,988
um it's a real Pacific Northwest
challenge I think and you

1517
01:14:40,988 --> 01:14:45,055
could expand into the west
coast And where I actually hope

1518
01:14:45,055 --> 01:14:49,912
Mayor Wilson kind of finds
her footing on this is this

1519
01:14:49,912 --> 01:14:55,319
is one of the most powerful
mayoral offices in the country.

1520
01:14:56,399 --> 01:15:00,055
You have the ability to
do things in this job

1521
01:15:00,055 --> 01:15:03,916
that most mayors do not
have the ability to do.

1522
01:15:03,917 --> 01:15:07,018
And that's a hard
thing to learn.

1523
01:15:07,018 --> 01:15:08,854
I think that's one of
the reasons why her

1524
01:15:08,854 --> 01:15:10,832
learning curve is big is
because if you haven't

1525
01:15:10,832 --> 01:15:12,970
been in the government,
it's hard to know just

1526
01:15:12,970 --> 01:15:14,319
how much power you have.

1527
01:15:15,578 --> 01:15:19,456
But the ability to affect
the level of change

1528
01:15:19,456 --> 01:15:23,444
we're talking about here
mostly, I would argue, rests

1529
01:15:23,444 --> 01:15:26,877
on the feet of the mayor to
exert strong leadership.

1530
01:15:26,877 --> 01:15:29,291
They have the ability,
essentially, to push the

1531
01:15:29,291 --> 01:15:30,738
council to do what they want.

1532
01:15:30,738 --> 01:15:33,658
Like, there's a few
council members here.

1533
01:15:33,658 --> 01:15:36,171
Bob Kettle had a statement
a few months ago where he

1534
01:15:36,171 --> 01:15:39,104
said that the mayor needs to
recognize that the council is a

1535
01:15:39,104 --> 01:15:40,720
co-equal branch of government.

1536
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:42,238
No, it is not.

1537
01:15:42,238 --> 01:15:45,546
It is not in this city and
so if the mayor recognizes

1538
01:15:45,546 --> 01:15:48,863
that authority to direct
the departments to take

1539
01:15:48,863 --> 01:15:52,551
specific actions to whether
it's HSD or whether it's

1540
01:15:52,551 --> 01:15:55,904
SPD or whether it's SDOT
whatever you've got to do

1541
01:15:55,904 --> 01:15:59,837
to affect policy that starts to
move the needle on all of

1542
01:15:59,837 --> 01:16:02,707
the things we discussed up
here, the mayor has the

1543
01:16:02,707 --> 01:16:05,439
ability to do it if they
can hold strong footing

1544
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:10,725
and not get worried, reactive,
or scared of the blowback

1545
01:16:10,725 --> 01:16:13,279
they're definitely going to get.

1546
01:16:13,279 --> 01:16:14,756
Because it will happen.

1547
01:16:14,756 --> 01:16:16,899
You will get that
blowback, but you

1548
01:16:16,899 --> 01:16:19,645
have to be able to determine
which of these things are

1549
01:16:19,645 --> 01:16:21,439
my priority and which
of these areas am I not

1550
01:16:21,439 --> 01:16:22,337
going to back down on.

1551
01:16:23,676 --> 01:16:26,631
If Mayor Wilson called me
and asked me for advice as

1552
01:16:26,631 --> 01:16:29,515
to what she should do, I
would tell her two things.

1553
01:16:30,698 --> 01:16:35,359
Pay attention to public
safety because it will define

1554
01:16:35,359 --> 01:16:37,537
how the public views you.

1555
01:16:37,537 --> 01:16:41,591
And don't be afraid to properly
balance when we want the

1556
01:16:41,591 --> 01:16:45,819
police to arrest people and
when we want social services.

1557
01:16:45,819 --> 01:16:47,819
Again, that's also
a false dichotomy.

1558
01:16:47,819 --> 01:16:48,862
We can do both.

1559
01:16:48,862 --> 01:16:51,210
And if you look at
the mayor of San

1560
01:16:51,210 --> 01:16:55,296
Francisco, he has threaded
that needle very, very well.

1561
01:16:56,319 --> 01:17:00,002
And he's been in office
19 months and has a 74

1562
01:17:00,002 --> 01:17:02,256
percent approval rating.

1563
01:17:03,417 --> 01:17:05,636
Any politician would love that.

1564
01:17:05,636 --> 01:17:09,662
Second thing she could do is
actually demand accountability

1565
01:17:09,662 --> 01:17:11,555
for how we spend our dollars.

1566
01:17:12,698 --> 01:17:16,318
When I was on the council
it was almost impossible

1567
01:17:16,318 --> 01:17:19,938
to defund a program King
County just went through

1568
01:17:19,938 --> 01:17:24,390
a process where the auditors
found massive misconduct

1569
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:26,618
millions of dollars wasted

1570
01:17:28,478 --> 01:17:31,386
it was almost I mean they
haven't even defunded

1571
01:17:31,386 --> 01:17:34,296
all those organizations
yet they have a couple

1572
01:17:34,296 --> 01:17:35,778
but not the others.

1573
01:17:35,778 --> 01:17:37,627
So it's very, very hard.

1574
01:17:37,627 --> 01:17:40,029
She would win huge compliments

1575
01:17:40,029 --> 01:17:42,988
from the voters of
Seattle if she could help

1576
01:17:42,988 --> 01:17:46,136
prove that our tax dollars
are being wisely spent.

1577
01:17:47,319 --> 01:17:51,037
So the question is, how
can schools be part of

1578
01:17:51,037 --> 01:17:55,359
the solution to social
supports and public safety,

1579
01:17:55,359 --> 01:17:58,863
given the scant level of
resources that Seattle Public

1580
01:17:58,863 --> 01:18:00,618
Schools currently enjoys.

1581
01:18:01,618 --> 01:18:04,198
So I appreciate the
opportunity to clarify.

1582
01:18:04,198 --> 01:18:06,551
I'm not talking about
the schools paying to

1583
01:18:06,551 --> 01:18:07,859
bring cops into school.

1584
01:18:07,859 --> 01:18:11,944
I'm just talking about a
cooperative relationship where

1585
01:18:11,944 --> 01:18:15,203
officers are allowed on
campus and are allowed to

1586
01:18:15,203 --> 01:18:16,457
get to know students.

1587
01:18:16,457 --> 01:18:21,145
And I think I was pretty shocked
during my short time at SPD

1588
01:18:21,145 --> 01:18:25,636
how difficult and fraught
that was at the upper levels.

1589
01:18:25,636 --> 01:18:29,055
What I learned is in the
communities on the street,

1590
01:18:29,055 --> 01:18:32,886
in the schools, the district
patrol officers got to know

1591
01:18:32,886 --> 01:18:34,759
the staff at those schools.

1592
01:18:34,759 --> 01:18:36,238
Just they had to.

1593
01:18:36,238 --> 01:18:38,136
It was like a survival thing.

1594
01:18:38,136 --> 01:18:41,778
But there needs to be
direction from the top that

1595
01:18:41,778 --> 01:18:43,595
we are partners in this.

1596
01:18:43,595 --> 01:18:47,198
But this is where the
ideology is so problematic.

1597
01:18:47,198 --> 01:18:51,537
There are so many people
that, you know, hate cops.

1598
01:18:51,537 --> 01:18:56,198
And we do not want cops in
our school no matter what.

1599
01:18:56,198 --> 01:18:58,118
Every cop is the same
and they're all bad.

1600
01:18:58,118 --> 01:19:01,158
Well, we can't build a
partnership with a school that

1601
01:19:01,158 --> 01:19:02,819
has that kind of philosophy.

1602
01:19:02,819 --> 01:19:06,180
So I don't think the money
is if you're going to put

1603
01:19:06,180 --> 01:19:09,462
school resource officers
in schools, they have

1604
01:19:09,462 --> 01:19:11,020
to be paid for somehow.

1605
01:19:11,020 --> 01:19:14,220
But the bigger issue is
just the relationship

1606
01:19:14,220 --> 01:19:15,738
and the partnership.

1607
01:19:17,676 --> 01:19:21,434
So the question is, are
there conversations or is

1608
01:19:21,434 --> 01:19:25,648
anyone thinking about ways
to improve cooperation and

1609
01:19:25,648 --> 01:19:30,779
coordination between corrections
officers and police officers?

1610
01:19:30,779 --> 01:19:36,229
And in particular, you're citing
a program from Neighborhood

1611
01:19:36,229 --> 01:19:38,537
Corrections Initiative.

1612
01:19:38,537 --> 01:19:41,917
I'm trying to think of the woman
that was the one that was kind

1613
01:19:41,917 --> 01:19:43,537
of leading the charge there.

1614
01:19:43,537 --> 01:19:46,158
She was awesome.

1615
01:19:49,296 --> 01:19:50,019
Oh, is that right?

1616
01:19:51,095 --> 01:19:53,457
Oh, that's hilarious.

1617
01:19:53,457 --> 01:19:56,095
But I'm really glad you brought
that up because I haven't

1618
01:19:56,095 --> 01:19:57,555
thought about that for a while.

1619
01:19:57,555 --> 01:19:59,537
But that was a really
effective program.

1620
01:19:59,537 --> 01:20:02,537
And I'm working with some
folks on coming up with ideas.

1621
01:20:02,537 --> 01:20:05,279
And I'm going to steal that
from you to bring that back.

1622
01:20:06,658 --> 01:20:10,578
Because we as a community
forget corrections officers are

1623
01:20:10,578 --> 01:20:12,500
like way back in the shadows.

1624
01:20:12,500 --> 01:20:14,377
Nobody pays attention to them.

1625
01:20:14,377 --> 01:20:17,457
But they are gold
mines of information.

1626
01:20:17,457 --> 01:20:20,689
And they understand the people
that are in and out of jail

1627
01:20:20,689 --> 01:20:24,055
better than the cops, better
than social workers, I think.

1628
01:20:24,055 --> 01:20:25,438
Valerie was her name.

1629
01:20:25,438 --> 01:20:27,569
Yeah, I can't remember her
name, but yeah, I can see her

1630
01:20:27,569 --> 01:20:30,417
face, but yeah, but that was a
really, really good program.

1631
01:20:32,537 --> 01:20:35,555
So we're five minutes
until time, so I want to

1632
01:20:35,555 --> 01:20:38,817
give each of the panelists
one more opportunity

1633
01:20:38,819 --> 01:20:41,618
to weigh in with some
closing thoughts.

1634
01:20:41,618 --> 01:20:45,045
And in particular, let me invite
you to comment on this theme

1635
01:20:45,045 --> 01:20:48,599
that we've now heard in this
last question and also in

1636
01:20:48,599 --> 01:20:52,555
the question about the
schools, which is do you see

1637
01:20:52,555 --> 01:20:56,430
other opportunities for
cross-departmental,

1638
01:20:56,430 --> 01:21:00,274
cross-functional
collaboration to help build

1639
01:21:00,274 --> 01:21:03,818
some of these networks
of support that could

1640
01:21:05,296 --> 01:21:09,037
augment and supplement
the work that the police

1641
01:21:09,037 --> 01:21:12,957
and other law enforcement
personnel are doing sort of

1642
01:21:12,957 --> 01:21:16,435
daily weekly on a regular
basis besides the schools

1643
01:21:16,438 --> 01:21:18,670
and Corrections where
the other opportunities

1644
01:21:18,670 --> 01:21:21,171
I think there's a lot
public health is a huge

1645
01:21:21,171 --> 01:21:24,438
area for opportunities
I think because

1646
01:21:24,438 --> 01:21:27,474
we have a new County Executive
we have a new mayor we

1647
01:21:27,474 --> 01:21:31,082
have there the services
and these organizations

1648
01:21:31,082 --> 01:21:34,877
are very siloed and so it
will take a real specific

1649
01:21:34,877 --> 01:21:39,018
Effort to try and get those
relationships built

1650
01:21:39,018 --> 01:21:41,100
But I think that I think
there's a lot

1651
01:21:41,100 --> 01:21:43,345
that could be done there
that we're not currently

1652
01:21:43,345 --> 01:21:46,037
doing to break down those silos

1653
01:21:46,037 --> 01:21:49,438
particularly when it
comes to jail health and

1654
01:21:49,438 --> 01:21:53,220
Opportunities for intervention
that we have for people that are

1655
01:21:53,220 --> 01:21:56,796
booked into jail particularly
people that were on the street

1656
01:21:56,796 --> 01:22:00,055
in distress, but also
maybe committing crimes.

1657
01:22:01,296 --> 01:22:03,627
Yeah, I'll say I'm glad
this conversation went in

1658
01:22:03,627 --> 01:22:05,957
this direction, because
I think really focusing

1659
01:22:05,957 --> 01:22:08,323
in on the specific issue
here is really important.

1660
01:22:08,323 --> 01:22:10,519
And I would agree with
everything that Sue just

1661
01:22:10,519 --> 01:22:13,384
said, but I'm going to kind of
go back to the leadership piece

1662
01:22:13,384 --> 01:22:15,390
of it, which I think
is really a key here.

1663
01:22:15,390 --> 01:22:17,220
You know, when a situation like

1664
01:22:17,220 --> 01:22:20,457
the Bite of Seattle
happens, people are

1665
01:22:20,457 --> 01:22:22,689
looking for basically
competent, compassionate,

1666
01:22:22,689 --> 01:22:23,778
empathetic leadership.

1667
01:22:23,778 --> 01:22:24,658
That's what they need.

1668
01:22:24,658 --> 01:22:28,452
They need the leaders in
their city to not just do

1669
01:22:28,452 --> 01:22:31,185
their regular job, right,
and like help run the

1670
01:22:31,185 --> 01:22:32,555
department, help run
the communications.

1671
01:22:32,555 --> 01:22:34,859
They need that person to
feel what they're feeling

1672
01:22:34,859 --> 01:22:37,497
and stand in front of a
TV camera and say that.

1673
01:22:37,497 --> 01:22:41,256
And when you succeed in that,
then you also have the capital

1674
01:22:41,256 --> 01:22:43,868
to stand up in front and say,
I'm going to demand these

1675
01:22:43,868 --> 01:22:44,898
entities work together.

1676
01:22:46,398 --> 01:22:49,898
We cannot have a siloed solution
to each one of these things.

1677
01:22:49,898 --> 01:22:52,938
And we need that really
badly right now.

1678
01:22:52,938 --> 01:22:55,018
We need a person.

1679
01:22:55,018 --> 01:22:57,969
We need our current mayor to
be able to stand behind that

1680
01:22:57,969 --> 01:23:00,917
podium and say, this is the
direction we are going to go.

1681
01:23:00,917 --> 01:23:02,618
And you elected me.

1682
01:23:02,618 --> 01:23:05,171
And so I anticipate you're
going to follow me on

1683
01:23:05,171 --> 01:23:06,417
this and give it a shot.

1684
01:23:07,478 --> 01:23:11,858
But that trust is built
one step at a time.

1685
01:23:11,858 --> 01:23:13,478
And we went backward
in the summer.

1686
01:23:13,478 --> 01:23:15,877
And we're going to have some
work to do to rebuild it again.

1687
01:23:17,118 --> 01:23:19,707
Steve, the thing I like
about Mayor Wilson's

1688
01:23:19,707 --> 01:23:22,938
gun reduction plan today
was the collaboration

1689
01:23:22,938 --> 01:23:26,296
across all the sectors
that she's working with

1690
01:23:26,296 --> 01:23:29,277
Johns Hopkins University
on, and that's a highly

1691
01:23:29,277 --> 01:23:30,377
successful program.

1692
01:23:30,377 --> 01:23:33,337
So you've got police there,
you've got public health there,

1693
01:23:33,337 --> 01:23:35,859
you have the social
service folks, so that

1694
01:23:35,859 --> 01:23:37,518
could be really effective.

1695
01:23:37,518 --> 01:23:39,997
And if you would like to
receive my free newsletter,

1696
01:23:41,136 --> 01:23:47,279
Just go to TimBurgess.com
and you can sign up there.

1697
01:23:49,555 --> 01:23:52,930
So for those of you who are
a little baffled by the

1698
01:23:52,930 --> 01:23:57,658
interdepartmental cooperation
that we've just been discussing,

1699
01:23:57,658 --> 01:24:00,756
there is city-level cooperation
across departments.

1700
01:24:00,756 --> 01:24:05,810
But also, as Benton and others
have said, there's cooperation

1701
01:24:05,810 --> 01:24:08,238
with county programs as well.

1702
01:24:08,238 --> 01:24:11,658
And then for corrections,
we need the state involved.

1703
01:24:11,658 --> 01:24:14,993
For the question of
involuntary commitment, we

1704
01:24:14,993 --> 01:24:17,078
also need state laws changed.

1705
01:24:17,078 --> 01:24:19,640
So a little bit of public
administration 101 from the

1706
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:21,157
Evans School of Public Policy.

1707
01:24:22,537 --> 01:24:23,537
Thank you for coming out.