Seattle native and Central District resident Vivian
Phillips is a communications professional and arts leader.
She founded and launched Art Noir online in May 2021 and
in September 2022 opened as a physical space in the historic
Central District, showcasing Black art and products
made by Black creatives.
Vivian led the public art plan and led a community-based
artist selection process for Midtown Square, where Art
Noir is the anchor tenant.
Please give her a warm welcome as she...
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you, Vivian.
I'm going to bring it just a little bit closer.
Thank you all so very much for coming inside, out of the sun,
out of this beautiful, beautiful seafair weekend.
I want you all to know that we are also sorry that Marcus and
Mayor Wilson was both unable to join us.
We are, we're going to do something a
little bit different.
We've got a couple of experts here.
We're going to talk a little bit about Seattle
democracy as we know it, but we're also going to
talk about the content of the Freedom Plane papers.
And we're going to attempt to give you some
of your evening back.
Would you like that?
I don't hear that well, so you're going to have to respond.
It's a beautiful day.
So it turns out to be a benefit.
We're going to get our time back before the sun goes down.
But it is my absolute honor to be here this evening
and to have a chance to be in conversation with these
two incredible individuals.
I had to go ladies first because Leonard and I have
known each other for 120 years.
I know, half of the age of the United States of America.
But we're going to get into it today.
Please also welcome Megan Ming Francis.
She is the G.
Alan and Barbara Delsman Associate
Professor of Political Science and an associate professor of
law, societies, and justice at the University of Washington.
She specializes in the study of American politics.
I love that so much.
With broad interest in other things that I love, which
include constitutional law, black political activism,
critical, critical philanthropy, and the post-Civil War South.
She's the author of the award-winning book, Civil
Rights and the Making of the Modern American State.
And her research and commentary have been featured
on numerous news outlets.
Frances is a proud alumni of Seattle Public Schools.
Yes, girl.
And she is also an alumni of Rice University in Houston
and Princeton University, where she received her
M.A. and Ph.D.
in politics.
Please welcome Megan Francis.
My dear friend, Leonard Garfield, is the executive
director of MOHAI.
He is at the helm for all activities at the museum,
works with the Board of Trustees, which I don't envy.
I'm sorry, I just...
Oh, that's okay.
And he works with the community to achieve the mission of MOHAI.
Leonard holds an MA degree in American culture from
the University of Michigan and has more than 30 years of
experience managing regional cultural organizations,
six years as executive director of the King County
Office of Cultural Resources, which is now 4Culture and
that is where he directed programs of the king county arts
commission and the king county landmarks and
heritage commission I don't see it in his bio
that that's where we met but you can you can correct
that later normally in my bio
Leonard served as Washington State Historic Preservation
Programs Manager, the Wisconsin State Historic
Preservation Historian, and led MOHAI to its move
to right here in Seattle's Lake Union Park in 2012
and launched MOHAI's Bezos Center for Innovation in 2013.
He's taught historic preservation at the College of
Architecture and Urban Design at the University of Washington.
And among his writings, he is the co-author
of Built in Washington, an Architectural History of the
State, published by WSU Press.
Welcome, Leonard Garfield.
So as we know, we're going to have a much
different conversation.
Well, we're going to have a different conversation than
the one we originally intended.
But I think it gives us a little bit more time, Leonard,
if we can start with you to really talk about the Freedom
Plane exhibits, what it was that you envisioned when MOHAI
went forward to secure this as the last stop on the tour.
And what is it that you are hopeful that Seattle residents
would get from having exposure to these founding documents?
Well, it's really an extraordinary opportunity
for MOHAI and for Seattle.
How many of you have had a chance to see
the documents upstairs?
Almost everybody.
So I really should be asking the question of you in a way.
But this was to me the most meaningful way to commemorate
and reflect on America's 250th anniversary because what's
so unique about these doc oh I'm sorry thank
you thank you for uh let me know they said to bring
it really close and I didn't listen to them but
what's so exciting about these documents to me to
see them in person is we see them changing in the
moment the deck of the Bill of Rights that's up
there did you notice that certain rights have been
crossed out the Constitution that's up there has
handwritten notes of edits Corrections changes to me
it's a reflection of that phrasing the Constitution
toward a more perfect union, recognizing, and these
documents prove it, that it was never complete.
It was far, far from perfect.
And yet people at that time,
at that very moment, were beginning to change it.
And that responsibility has now
come to us.
It's up to us to make the changes that
that we want to make within this framework that we were given
of the ideal, the aspiration of equality, of liberty,
of self-governance that never was fully or even partly,
partially, fragmentally realized.
But the course of American history
has constantly been addressing that with steps forward
and steps back.
But from the day those documents were created,
people were changing them.
That's who we are.
We can change those.
And so what I wanted, Vivian, was people to see
these documents and to feel empowered to know that
the power is in our hands.
It's not in the White House.
It's not in Congress.
It's not in the Supreme Court.
There's a heck of a lot of power residing there.
But the biggest power in the American democratic
system is the power of the people, and that's what
those documents represent.
So can I assume that this is not an exhibit that was planned
to be at MOHAI a long time ago?
This was a great opportunity when the National Archives
thought we can keep these documents in vaults.
And literally these documents, when they leave here, will be
in a vault for the next decade because they literally cannot
be exposed to light and air.
So this is a really rare opportunity.
And they wanted to do something to really take, much in the
spirit of these documents, to take democracy to
the people and to allow communities to see it.
So eight cities across the country have been selected.
None of them were part of the original 13 colonies.
This has not been to the 13 colonies.
And now it's in the other Washington, about as far
away from the traditional Washington as you can get.
But we thought this, when we were approached about hosting
this, and the only condition was that you have the conservation
standards, so the climate's very rigorously controlled, the
security is heightened over what we normally would do, but
also that you make it free.
And we love it every time we can make something free.
And we decide, let's not just make the documents free,
because Seattle's history is also part of this history,
so let's make the whole museum free
and talk about the history that we all know and love,
because you know what?
It's all, as the professor knows, it's all connected.
It's all connected.
I love what you said about the power of people to change
what our government, what our system of democracy looks like,
And a lot of that is the focus of some of the permanent
exhibits that are here, specifically the ones that
deal with activism in Seattle.
Before we talk about activism and before I even ask you
the first question that you know I'm going to ask you,
Professor Megan Francis, I want to know how is it
that you became interested to the degree that you
are in American politics?
I didn't know.
So that question was not coming.
Hey, everyone.
I'm Megan Francis.
It's really good to be here.
Thank you, Vivian, so much for curating this conversation
and to MOHAI and to all of you who are spending part
of your evening with us.
Um, uh, yeah.
So I grew up in the Mount Baker, Columbia city area
in Seattle in the eighties.
And then I went to Garfield high school in the nineties.
And I remember I took like the, I don't know if
they even still have them.
I took like the PSATs and then I was going to go to, uh, I
was trying to figure out how to go to college.
And at Garfield, there's like one counselor for like, at
the time for 450 students.
So you had to do it yourself.
But I had a group of my friends at Garfield who were like,
these are the colleges I'm going to and I want to go to.
And another group of my friends who were like, huh, what, who?
Maybe I'll go to UW.
Maybe I'll go to Eastern.
Maybe I won't go.
I got to take care of my parents.
And I was like, what is going on here?
And so like that was actually for me,
even though there were a lot of other signs for me,
but there was this moment where I felt like
so many of my friends were going in different
directions, and it wasn't because one group
of friends was smarter than the other group of friends,
but had a different set of life possibilities before
And I did not understand that as a 16, 17-year-old
person growing up in Seattle.
So then I went to Rice University, and I was
like, "I'm about to be a computer scientist."
I did leave out that I did an internship at Microsoft
back in the day-day.
And I was like, "I'm going to be a computer scientist.
I'm going to come back to Seattle.
I'm going to drive around in a Porsche like my manager did.
And that's going to be my life.
And so that was my major when I went to Rice University.
That's why I went to Rice, actually.
And I was like, I hate these classes.
These are terrible classes.
And then I did what I told myself
that I would never actually do, which I tell all my students
to do at UW, which is just to take classes
that you're interested in.
That sound interesting.
Like, how do you become like, this is the beauty of, not
Rice, but like well-rounded liberal arts education, right?
Is that like, you take the classics even though
you're like, what can I do with that degree, right?
But because it's interesting.
So I took, I was like, what's political science?
What's econ?
What's history?
What's Caribbean nation building?
And so I took all these classes and then all of a
sudden all of the things that didn't make sense like
all these puzzle pieces In my life started to move into
fit. I'm like, oh the reason why This happened in my community
in Seattle is because there's economic inequality and
that leads people to live in different neighborhoods
Oh because of this because there's power that
works in local politics
This is why things work the way they do.
This is the reason why Garfield was over-policed and
the CD at that time was...
And so for me, I got interested in politics and specifically
American politics because...
And this is my selfish reason, but it's my honest reason,
which is that it helped me make sense of my life.
And so that is like...
And it has continued.
The reason why, and this is where I'll end on this question,
is the reason why I've stayed in this interest in politics
is because of a really curiosity about power
and a belief that a deeper understanding of that,
like politics shapes our entire world.
I teach a survey course at UW right now,
and so it's politics majors, but it's mostly not
politics majors, right?
And what I say, I was like, you can go into medicine,
you can go into marketing, you can go into the arts,
but you're never escaping politics.
You're just not.
And so you might as well as try to understand
a little bit about it so you can understand
your world better and how to navigate that.
It is a tool in a toolbox, and do not leave it on the table,
especially not in this universe.
I love that.
I'm glad I thought of that.
I'm glad I thought to ask you that.
You know, back before the earth broke up when I was
in high school, we used to study contemporary problems.
That's what it was called then.
And that's where you got your-so you know I was a long time ago.
Some of you all have been in one of my classes, I'm sure.
But that's when we learned about American politics.
That's when we learned about history.
And it seems that that's all gone from the
curriculums these days.
It's like trying to keep up with the tech industry is more
important than understanding and making sense of the world
in which you are residing.
So the other question I want to ask you is, given your vast
knowledge of American politics and looking at America being
250 years old, these papers are celebrating 250, right?
So why are they still relevant today?
Okay, so I love this.
I knew this question was coming, though.
I think that, so I'm going to try to answer this,
I think, in two ways.
One, the case that I make to my students in any introduction
course in American politics.
Oh, I'm going to do a little backup, if that's okay,
to a connecting story.
I initially finished my PhD teaching American politics,
well, teaching courses around American politics.
And I was like, I don't want to teach a survey course.
Why am I going to teach a survey course?
That's boring.
old documents, old people, dead people.
I want to teach more about contemporary problems,
like social movements, which I hope we can talk
about today as well.
And then my first job was at Pepperdine University
in Malibu, California.
And I taught a lot there, and I realized the
importance of it just in terms of
providing a landscape to understand everything
else that comes afterwards.
I'm somebody that also believes the kind of the
juicy part of politics is actually the gray area.
I'm actually not that interested in what's black and white,
like what's clearly defined.
And that is my roundabout way of getting to this question,
which is I think what is so exciting about the founding
documents and the case that I make to my students right now
is that this was a time in which there was just ideas, right?
Jefferson's cribbing, right, from the ideas
of the Enlightenment.
He's like, okay, like pursuit of happiness.
What are things that we should want, right?
This idea about, like, we have these things now,
but what does it mean?
can you envision like we spoke I feel like we don't talk about
it a lot now but I feel like early in like 2020 there
was a lot of conversation especially in left circles
around imagination and the importance of imagination
and dreaming what a better world would actually look like
and that's in some ways kind of what they did they were like
we don't like being governed by by Britain, right?
And so what does it actually mean
to envision what a better world would actually look like?
We're not there yet.
And so we're going to draft a bunch of ideas
and have it as our North Star and like stumble along the way
to get there.
But like maybe future generations
can actually get there.
And I think it's also really useful
in terms of what does it mean to envision a world that you
may not experience right now, but being able to perhaps
work towards that.
It's that same plant trees that you will never,
whose shades you will never experience.
And like in some ways, that's what they were doing, right?
Did they, right?
Did the framers or the founding fathers,
whatever word phrase that you want to use,
did they envision this world right now?
Yeah, right.
But I think that the part that is also really exciting
about that is to look at that as these were the documents
that helped frame this moment.
And that then generations of different people have
interpreted in different ways.
Like have taken these ideals and have been like this
is what freedom, this is what equality should mean.
This is what justice should mean.
This is actually who we the people are.
It's actually women.
It's actually people who don't own land.
It's actually black people.
It's actually Asian people.
So all of this comes afterwards.
And it's not that necessarily these documents gave them that,
but it provided a type of framework.
And I think it's really useful.
I think we always should be in a place of imagination,
definitely now, of what a better democracy, of what
what a better country, what a better government looks like.
But at the same time, and this is why I see her, which is that
then there is another case.
My colleague, my senior colleague, George Lovell at the
University of Washington, him and I two years ago, we
started teaching a new course because of this moment that we
are in called Can Democracy Be Saved?
question mark.
And then where he's the kind of person where
he's like, this is the founding.
And then I'm the person in that class and in that course, who's
like, what's the case?
Like, maybe like, it's also
true. And that maybe we should, this is not working.
This is not working right now government right now
especially at the federal level is not working
in many many ways and what is wrong with saying
hey we might need to rewrite a new constitution
and a new set of people and new values right now
many big countries we're the only with that we
We have the longest, oldest, constitution, I mean not
the longest, shortest, oldest constitution
that's still in place.
And so why are we continuing to salvage and reclaim this?
There is a very strong case that many people have made
that perhaps what we need to do is in terms of appreciate what
has happened in the past and what we were given and then
then try again and write something that
is more inclusive.
I guess, you know, when I think about it,
I think that maybe that's what's happening.
And maybe, is it possible that people are reimagining
what America should or can look like,
and it's just maybe not the most popular thought?
Is that possible that that's what's happening as well
as you know the necessity to kind of take the documents
and go let's rewrite them I have to tell you that
going back in and looking at the Constitution and
thinking about the the founding papers it was a
little bit of a surprise reminder that the Constitution
is a very short document.
It's the amendments that extend far
beyond. So I'm wondAarong what your thoughts are
about the possibility, both of you can answer
this, the possibility of us being in a moment
where the Constitution is going to be amended more.
Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting because almost
from the beginning, well, the Bill of Rights was the
first set of amendments.
I mean, almost from the beginning.
Yeah. Wait a second.
There's missing this, this and that.
And protests against that, Shays' Rebellion.
I mean, all these protests, some
of them were armed and violent, happened right away.
So there was always this dynamism built into the system.
And, of course, Jefferson used the phrase in the Declaration,
I'm going to forget the exact wording, but there are times
when a government does need to reinvent itself and does need
to have a revolution, basically.
And the Constitution frames it as toward a more perfect union.
So the notion that it is organic in many ways and should be
organic to keep it vibrant.
But I think, and I would turn to Megan for an understanding
on this, but the amendments to the Constitution happened
fairly frequently through the 19th and early 20th century.
And then suddenly, and actually it was the Equal
Rights Amendment, wasn't it?
Although we got the 18-year-old vote came, slipped in
there and a few others.
But it seemed to come, and it's partly the sclerosis
in our own political system of recent decades.
The amendment process has really stopped.
And there's a whole lot actually historically about that whole
system is predicated on the way, you know, votes are attributed,
which, of course, goes back to the Constitution and how human
beings were treated in terms of who was counted and who wasn't.
But it's become very difficult to amend the Constitution.
I think one of the fears of seriously changing it, to
Megan's point, is the fear that, whoa, would it end up in a
situation where the result of that would be something
that would be scary?
But what is your thought about the amendment process?
Or, you know, is that a viable tool still for
evolving the Constitution?
I think it's a tool that's on the table.
Right now, in terms of the amendment
process, I don't see it.
It's so, everything is so gummed up at the federal level
that that process is going to be, that's not a process.
like let's say that there's a change that I want,
that's not going to be an avenue, a route right
now that I would pursue.
I don't see any new amendments happening in areas that for me
that I would like them to happen, which is I think
that's why there has been, I feel like increased energy
and, you know, like the likelihood of it or not
about kind of reestablishing a new constitutional
convention and like what would that actually look like.
There are things that, you know, met all of us here
on this panel and many other people talk about
that are deeply undemocratic about the Constitution.
I feel like the two things most people always pull out.
And still, every single time I teach American politics,
it is still crazy, which is the Electoral College.
It's just so insane, right?
It's built and conceived on an idea that we don't trust people.
Like, this is the whole point of a, right?
And then the other part here is going to be the
Senate and, like, how things are proportioned, right?
That certain states have so much more power in the
Senate than other states do.
So you're talking about gerrymandAarong and districting
and all of that and how that's going to impact.
Yeah, and there's certain aspects about things that
have changed over time.
Now, unlike when the Constitution was passed, we
people vote on senators, right?
Where before in the Constitution, those
were appointed by state legislatures, right?
But that has been done because of amendment.
But that has - but the process of getting amendments because
of where we are in politics, it is unlikely that there's going
to be a - that things are going to - kind of the divisiveness
in politics and the polarization that exists right now in United
States politics is going to dramatically decrease in the
next decade or two decades.
That's just - it's unlikely to happen, right?
I think the exciting aspects are people who are
thinking outside of the box.
I think what's frustrating for, I wouldn't even say
just young people right now, is people who are trying
to figure out work inside of the system.
And so this is the call for people who are like, let's
think of new solutions because this is not working.
And at what point are you like, democracy is on the guardrails,
democracy is fragile.
Are you like, we are no longer in a democracy, right?
And we need to say that.
That's some people, many of my students.
And we need to say that and then work towards things.
There's a whole other group of my students who
would be like, no, no, no.
There is so much good here that still can be, like,
reclaimed and salvaged.
We just need better politicians.
We need more young people in office.
We need these old people to stop dying in office, right?
That's what they tell me.
I'm like, okay, okay, right?
We need more just policy, right?
We need better local governance, better state governance.
This is what they will say.
And their interest is really about a deep belief
in something that you have already mentioned
in the role of different types of social movements.
And they really view like that is, at least in their minds,
especially a number of my students,
have come up through climate justice,
have come up through guns in terms of like thinking about
what are different young people movements around that,
and they see that as a type of reclamation and evidence
that democracy, at least in this country, still works.
I wonder, for both of you, when I look at any
parts of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, any of those
documents, I see duplicity.
I see an ideal, but I see nothing
that supports the actualization of that ideal.
So, I mean, when we're talking about why it's
important why is it important when it doesn't have
inherent in it the kind of authentic care for humanity
that we read it as well I mean I think that reminds
me of something Megan said which was this was a
revolutionary concept just an ideal aspirational obviously
not even close to being realized to some extent I
I think they understood that it wasn't close to realization
because there was a lot of discussion about slavery
and the immorality or justification for it,
obviously among Jefferson, but even among George
Washington and other people.
They debated it all the time.
So it wasn't just that's how things were.
They consciously were acting in contrast
to the ideals they stated.
But what's so interesting about it
is that they framed up ideals that then inspired
not only the United States, but so many countries around the
world, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution,
the Pan-African movements towards independent countries,
all were heavily influenced by the ideals stated
in those documents.
And one of the things that I think maybe one note of
optimism we can take is that in recent polls of the
American people, the ideals of the Declaration,
I mean, you would think this would be, as
they say, self-evident.
I mean, of course people should believe this, but
we know how divided we are.
We know how hard it is to get a majority to agree to anything,
that the ideals of life, liberty, and the
pursuit of happiness, that all people are
created equal, rank in the 90 percentile.
I mean, and that's one thing that across the
political spectrum, and of course that's the
lowest bar you could possibly set in today's world,
and yet that is a bar that there is some commonality.
So I think what the value of those documents are is simply
the framing up of there is a better world that we can create
And that is really our responsibility to do it.
Nobody's going to do it for us and you know,
nobody did it for them
Nobody did it for all the people who fought to
expand those those freedoms
You know as you know Vivian because you've
been part of that history nobody said here's a right that
we're going to have nobody said we're going to end this war
you know it was only when people got collectively
together and took the power and that to me is what
those ideals inspire yeah I guess I think about
it from the perspective of this is all built on
capitalism you know like they didn't want to be
taxed they got out of britain they came here they
They didn't want to be taxed.
I mean, that's kind of the way it started, right?
And then you have coming to a land that is inhabited
and taking that land.
The Revolutionary War was not fought by white
people alone, right?
And so it's all of those things that I feel are kind of baked
into the founding documents documents that are so
inauthentic to the world we say we want to aspire
to which brings me back to why is this even important
you know and that's just my own personal thing
but let's talk about seattle democracy okay
as we know it uh seattle is what 159 years old
something like that probably probably right.
I told you I was here.
Here's one thing, though.
We should say the incorporated city of Seattle from the
late 1860s, so we can do our math from that.
And I think, you know, back in the day when we
were, we would say, well, Seattle was created when
the first white settlers settlers came, but of course,
as we know, humans and the indigenous world has been here
for time immemorial.
That's a great point, thank you.
Incorporated Seattle is about 159 years.
The late 1860s, so yeah, you're right on the money.
So just thinking about how democracy shows up in
our government, our local government, with a city that's
so young compared to the parts of the nation that's
200, 250 years old, even older.
Um where do we see pieces of our founding ideals
in our own charter in our own democratic system
and where are the places that there are gaps and
that we need to be focused on trying to fill those
gaps so that they're more related to the high ideals
that is a good question you are going to pose that
question of the mayor I believe when I when I look at
the script yeah so I didn't have a chance to think
about that but you know it's interesting I just
feel like a little fraction of an answer and then I
want to hear what Megan has to say but it's interesting
that the Washington Washington state constitution,
which obviously reflected a lot of the same values, did have
some features that were sort of enhancement or improvements.
And I was talking with Lieutenant Governor Denny Heck
the other day, and he said he was elected to the state
legislature when he was 24.
And I said, well, that's interesting because the
constitution, to be a congressional representative,
you have to be at least 25.
And he said, well, the Washington state constitution
says you only need to be 18.
So did you know you can be 18 and be elected to
the state legislature so I I hear your question
and I'm not answAarong it okay I just I just I found that one
little okay thanks but megan has an answer for your question
I don't have an answer I think it's an important
question yeah yeah I I mean, the way
that I'm hearing it, and I don't have the
specifics on this, the way that I'm
hearing this is, and push back in or add to this,
which is how is democracy realized in Seattle
and how is that impacted by, at the federal level,
our understanding of these ideals
in terms of these founding fathers?
Very much so.
In so many ways, this is the part of the importance
of cities and towns across this country,
they are not separated from what goes on at the federal level.
- Yeah, absolutely.
- Right?
And so in terms of what are the gaps--
I mean, you know, one of the things that...
Was a popular phrase for a very long time,
it felt like in the academy around American politics
as well as in local government was that, like,
cities and states were like laboratories for democracy.
Right. That like you couldn't like experiments, whether
it was, let's say, school lunch or vouchers, you
couldn't like immediately do that at the national level.
But you could pilot that in a state or in a city, right?
And more recently, there has been a bit of conversation
about states, cities, and towns being places against democracy,
laboratories actually against democracy as a way,
this is going to tie into some of my research here.
it will make sense, I promise, in a moment here.
As a way, 20 years ago, many in the conservative right,
especially billionaires, were trying to impact
at the federal level, and they weren't having
much of an impact.
And so what they did is then they moved it to
focus on state legislatures and state campaigns.
And they're like, if we can win on abortion, if we can
win on climate, if we can win on guns at the state level,
at different states, we can build a movement to get
what we want that then will feed up to the federal level.
And I'm saying that to say that that has not
fully happened in Seattle.
That has not fully happened in washington state um
that uh in many ways it has gone in the reverse
direction actually right um in terms of uh seattle
I mean washington state as well as california
after the abortion decision were like, oh, hey, hey.
So there's ways in which the Constitution was set up
that gave states at that time a lot of autonomy, right?
That an understanding at that time, of course,
that Alabama was not going to be the same as New Jersey.
Right, right, right.
And so what is clear is that Seattle and Washington State
has developed a different type of identity
than many other states have.
It has been clear that certain special interests
have not bought Seattle.
It is very clear as we sit where we sit
that certain special interests have bought
different parts of Seattle, different parts of
Seattle politics, and that we should
be cognizant of that.
A call out to the capitalism frame
like frame that you gave us earlier, right?
And there are always, I think, in terms of the way that
we can see influences
from the founding documents, there's certain
ways that like money continues to influence
and frame up our politics.
But there's a lot of power that the people actually have,
like in Seattle and in Washington State,
much more so than other places that I visited
and that I've done research about.
Wow, that's good to know.
And I mean, I think one of the things
about the federal system is it does give local communities
some power to really set their own rules and regulations.
I mean, it's heavily influenced,
especially in the 20th century, by the federal government,
which is a complete reversal of what it used to be.
I mean, it used to be, which is why we
do end up with an electoral college where little states get
almost as much power as big states, and it's completely
undemocratic in that sense.
But But it does allow
cities and states to exercise some autonomy,
which is why you see states that are liberal,
like Washington state, creating climate
legislation that's really in contradiction to some
of the federal EPA policies, or actually suing the
federal government, because they feel that
the execution of laws that the federal government is
pursuing are not constitutional.
So that kind of dynamism between local and state
government and the federal government is somewhat unusual,
actually, globally speaking, because most countries have
a central federal government that sort of runs everything.
I mean, when you go to England, for example, the prime minister
decides on what the bus fare is.
And so there is the opportunity for local communities to
exercise power, recognizing that the federal government, you
know, obviously plays a very large role in everything we do.
Can we point to some of the movements that have pushed
some of this legislation?
Because from my memory, for the most part, the
legislation that pushes us forward is not normally an
idea of an elected official.
It is normally a result of some pressure from community
or organized groups.
So given that we're all kind of from Seattle, what have you all
noted as some of those movements that have really pushed change
that have taken hold nationally, locally and nationally?
And the only one that I can immediately point to,
there are others, but I think about Earth Day.
And I think about Dennis Hayes, young 20-some-year-old Dennis
Hayes, who had this idea about what we could do to better
the environment that led to the establishment of the EPA.
Yeah, absolutely.
But even before that, really the cleanup of Lake
Washington and Metro was not a legislative action.
It was really local communities coming together,
Republican, Democratic, East Side, Seattle, saying,
hey, we've polluted the lake.
This isn't good for us and certainly not for
future generations.
Let's clean it up.
It was the largest environmental remediation that wasn't
federally dictated or the result of a court order.
But even I think of the Four Amigos.
I think of our civil rights leaders who voluntarily came
together across ethnic lines, across different political
positions and said, we need to fight for fair housing.
We need to fight for equal opportunity.
City Hall did not want to do it.
You know, those young high school kids from Garfield
High School went into City Hall and they laid down
outside the mayor's office until the mayor said, I'll
sign that fair housing legislation back in the 1960s.
And that was Mayor George Clinton?
I think it was George Clinton.
Not George.
Was his first name George?
Yeah, Gordon.
Gordon Clinton.
I'm thinking about, you know, Parliament Funkadelic.
I'm sorry.
I think there was a George Clinton somewhere
in our lives, but yeah.
But I think that's a good one.
And then the whole movement towards the reparations
for Japanese Americans who were incarcerated
started in Seattle.
In fact, MOHAI played a little role in that because we had
an exhibit developed by the the Japanese American community
back in the 1980s called The Pride and the Shame.
The seniors who had actually experienced as adults the
incarceration really didn't want to talk so much about
it, but the kids did.
And they created an exhibit, and that exhibit really, I think,
elevated the conversation.
And our friend from King County, who I'm going to blank on his
name, who's led that, Frank Frank Abe, who's done so
much of the history of that and tells that story.
So I think there are some really powerful instances of local
community activists taking the power into their own hands
and making that legislation happen or make that
change happen, because otherwise it wouldn't,
because it wasn't in the interest of the
people who had the power.
That's right.
No, this was great.
I feel like I just learned a lot.
I'm just going to do a short, like, two-finger add-on
and also a plug to two books in the bookstore
as I was walking through.
I think just to add on to what you mentioned here, for me,
and in part because it's also my research,
is civil rights, right?
That, like, what happened in terms of civil rights
leaders in Seattle, coming from University
of Washington.
And Quintard Taylor.
There is a book that they are selling in the bookstore
that's really important about Seattle civil rights history.
And that also, I know most people in this room may know,
but if you don't, that's perfectly fine as well.
But Seattle was a red line city.
And there is a reason, not anymore,
but there is a reason why black people lived
in the Central District.
Vivian's still holding out apparently.
in the central district, right, and in the Rainier Beach in
the South End area, right, in part because of redlining
that happened in Seattle.
And a lot of the organizing was about
housing segregation in the city.
What I will also say, the other thing that I am just very,
very aware of, because it was my own experience,
there's another book by Haymarket Press by Aaron
Aaron Dixon back there who was part of the Black Panther
Party here in Seattle.
And the reason why I said I was familiar with this
is Aaron Dixon was the community safety officer at
Garfield when I went there.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Because he basically, and I didn't know, and again, a young
14, 15-year-old Megan Francis who thought she knew everything
thing, was like, who's this older
black guy with some gray hair and some dreads out here?
You had no idea he was the co-founder
of the Seattle chapter of the Black Panther
Party. Checking on us.
People was getting fights all the time back in the 90s.
All the time, fights, acting up.
And he was like, what you're not going to do is
go to prison.
I'm going to hem you up.
I'm going to holler at you, and I'm going to
talk to you about this history.
And that is actually how I found out about
about the Black Panthers.
And in Seattle, I had one of the most
vibrant chapters on the West Coast.
The second chapter.
Right after Oakland.
And you know what?
The Dixon's home is being proposed
as a city of Seattle landmark.
Oh, I didn't know this.
So everybody get together.
The Black Heritage Society of Washington,
in partnership with MOHAI, is pushing for this.
And our friend Stephanie Johnson-Toliver
is leading that cause.
As is the Black Panther wall on 20th and Spruce.
Which is in your...
It's my neighborhood.
In the back of the woods, yeah.
Okay, now we're getting real cozy.
So I'm not going to go there.
No, go there.
But I think this history of redlining, and if anybody is
interested in this history, one of the things that I think
that's really fascinating about it is you can see how democracy
does and does not work.
Mm-hmm. Because I think it was outlawed
by, I think Dixie Lee Ray signed it, signed the resolution that
outlawed redlining in like 1977.
1968 is when all of the efforts really started in earnest.
Am I right, Sharon?
Because when was the open housing legislation
in 65, the city passed?
When was that, Sharon?
Yeah, 65.
And they finally passed the legislation citywide in 65.
And then the Federal Fair Housing Act outlawed redlining,
I think, across the country.
You are probably an expert on that.
I have to just say Sharon Maeda is like the gang
of four, five, fifth.
Yeah, the fifth of the gang of four.
She's like the fifth.
She's been around for a long time.
I can't believe we've talked as long as we actually have, right?
I know.
But I have one final question, and it's what are some
of the things that you think people can look for,
take from the Freedom Papers, the founding documents,
that give them hope and push people forward if they're stuck?
Is there anything that you think might help do that?
Well, I see so much wisdom in this audience.
And Ana Maria Pinto de Silva, who's an expert on
democracy in the age of AI, I think this is the thing
we're facing right now.
And when I look at those documents,
they're written documents by people,
they're ideas they're ideas as megan said those ideas that we
all have that you all have right now as you're thinking
those are the things that actually move the world
and how we take our ideas and manifest them in real
time is up to us but 250 years ago some people
who were very creative and imaginative did it.
It may not be the way we would have done it.
Time has changed.
The situation that they created is not where we want to end up.
But it is an example of taking ideas
and realizing them.
And as we enter the age of AI, the real challenge is,
is how are we going to stay empowered,
feel the power in ourselves, which is our
inheritance as Americans if we want to
believe those ideals and then actually
make it a reality.
So that's what I hope you all take
from those documents.
That's great.
Thank you.
That's wonderful.
What about you?
So I just want to say just one thing about the last exchange
that I think then ties into this last important question here,
which is the thing that kind of comes up for me
and the importance of this last exchange
was the importance of actually people putting into practice
and fighting for what we, in some ways,
at the federal level, state level, local level,
already in some ways granted or given.
It doesn't matter that we have the Civil Rights Act of 64,
the Voting Rights Act of 65.
It doesn't matter that we have housing.
Unless and unless people hold politicians
and community members to the fire.
It's people who put into reality what these things actually mean.
And that's in terms of whether it's talking about the Dixons,
whether it's talking about different people around
like earth justice that is actually what makes
the like things actually democracy democracy work
yeah right that's actually what it is yeah that is
what is so exciting um to this question in terms of
like where I see hope I see hope in that actually
It's the people.
At the end of the day, I think we the people is one
of the most powerful phrases.
I genuinely believe that.
Opening statement.
It is.
It comes from us.
Right? And like the thing that I always leave my
students and I'll leave you with this is that we are
I think imagination is one of the most powerful
muscles and tools we have that we don't spend enough time
on. Today, justifiably so, we are putting out fires
in our families and our communities in our politics
right now because there are so many fires to put out.
But what that does is it takes away time and energy
from the dreaming and the imagination that we need to
do to build a better world.
And we are always living in somebody's imagination.
So why not live in your imagination of what a
better world actually is?
Thank you, Leonard, Megan, Francis.
Thank you so much.
I think we have time for a couple of questions.
If anybody don't look at me.
I'm not looking at you.
I'm just looking.
I'm looking.
I'm just looking.
If anybody has any questions.
I don't have a question.
I hate it when people make comments instead of questions.
But I have to have a comment about the exhibit upstairs.
After looking at those historic documents going into that next
space and seeing the things that people here have done over the
last several decades should be an inspiration to exactly
what you're saying, Megan.
I mean, I found that juxtaposition
just perfect.
Because we wanted to tell that local story
because we knew we had taken the power
and we were going to balance the story out.
So Sharon's referring to an exhibit
that we're calling For Which It Stands.
We were just inspired by our collection of flags.
You know, just a design idea.
But it opened up all these stories
of really, wouldn't you say, heroic action
on the part of all of us to reflect, respond to,
and lean into the ideals that are on paper in the other room.
Right, but I have to say one other thing.
I just learned today that in 98118, where
Garfield High School is.
98144. Oh, 444 and 18.
We're all 98144.
The 37th district, only 11% of the ballots have been returned.
And we only have five days.
Only 11%.
And so people say, why do we have a president that
maybe we don't support?
Or why does this happen?
The power of the franchise, which people have
fought so hard to expand from the very first day
because it was so narrow.
If we don't encourage young people,
our neighbors, our colleagues to exercise that, there
really isn't any hope for democracy because that
is the starting point.
Well, I think one of the other ways that democracy shows up,
it just made me think about when you brought up the vote,
is the city of Seattle has democracy vouchers
that attempts to make the financial plane
feel a lot more even.
So I think that's another way that democracy
does show up here, and it's called that, which
I think is really bold.
Thank you for being here really enjoyed it um I
have two things actually one I'm currently reading
aaron dixon's die standing it's fantastic I recommend
it um and the second thing is
I have voted and what I did is it took a lot
of research because there were so many little
elections this time, right?
And I sent out a message on Facebook and to my friends,
here's who I voted for and here's the sources I used.
The voters pamphlet, the papers, League of Women Voters videos,
and what's the other one?
Seattle Channel videos.
So like kind of talking about it with your friends might help
them understand a little bit more what's out there.
Thank you for doing that.
Thank you.
I'm going to do a shameless plug right here
since we've been talking about Aaron and Elmer
Dixon. Aaron Dixon and his brother Elmer
Dixon, the co-founders of the Seattle chapter
of the Black Panther Party, will be at Art Noir
tomorrow at 2 o'clock in conversation
with Angela Rye as we close the most recent
exhibit called Central District Legacy Black Power Black
Panthers. Does everybody know where Art Noir is?
23rd Union.
Can't miss it on the corner we're
not uncle ike's so if you get to uncle ike's look right
that sounds so cool yeah the the exhibit is amazing and elmer
and aaron we I think we sold the last copy of Our
People Are Rising yesterday, but we
do have Die Standing by Elmer Dixon.
Such great people.
Ana has a question.
Well, okay then.
Thank you all so very much for your
time. We have one more question.
Who has the mic?
I had a question.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Oh, no, that's quite all right.
Firstly, just a reflection back.
What an honor to be be on the receiving
end of your brilliance.
And Leonard, thank you so much for everything MOHAI has done
to organize this fantastic panel.
It's amazing.
My question to you both, to all three of you,
is understanding that democracy has always been a hot mess.
Can you put the mic up just a little bit closer?
Democracy has always been a hot mess.
It's a messy, loud, family having an argument out on
the street kind of thing.
And it's actually something that makes me very
proud to be an American, is how messy it is, how
unbuttoned up it is.
And as the mom of a junior, a rising junior at Garfield,
and somebody who's really committed to
intergenerational learning and the power of our elders.
Can you reflect for us what you feel in this next season,
in the fall, the single most important things
that we can do to lean into the fight that is democracy?
- Wow.
Is that for all of us?
- Yeah.
So one of the things that I've just embraced recently,
and someone kind of shook me, was like I was being
shaken out of a sleep.
Because we're all in this place where we feel like
there's nothing we can do.
We feel helpless.
We feel like everything is happening to us, that we're
not making things happen.
And I think it's because we're constantly
focused on the big issue.
We don't focus on the little issues at home.
And so I think one of the things that I believe we
can do is start really leaning into local elections
and making sure that the right people are elected locally,
and they can start to affect change that moves up the ladder.
So I'm really into that right now.
I'm really like paying real close attention, more
attention, if that's possible, than I have in the past.
But understanding that that has an effect and that we can
cause effect at a higher level.
This is a great question.
Is the microphone on?
Is this better?
Perfect. This is a great question.
I don't have a perfect answer.
My answer right now, though, is actually
pulling on what was just said.
I think right now trying to - it feels like so much of the news
stories are about what's going on nationally, justifiably so.
That's just a hard area to crack, but there's just so much
I think that is possible at the state and at the local level.
And so for me, I'm going to pretend your child is
a student of mine, right?
And then what would I say?
Because students come into my office after and they're like,
okay, well, what can I do?
Because this just feels overwhelming, right?
And what I say is to find, I think everybody has something
that they actually care about.
And to find what you actually care about
and to find an organization or two
that is connected and to show up.
I think right now, like one of the things
that I feel like got lost still in COVID
that is still a little bit lost today
is like showing up in community and being in spaces
with people in community.
And that just is not happening in ways that I
think it could and it should.
So for me, it's like, hey, what I tell students, I'm
like, what do you care about?
You care about education?
Do you care about prisons?
Do you care about arts?
Do you like tell me what do you actually care about?
What causes what issues like make you upset, make
you happy, make you angry?
Find one or two.
Don't do don't try to sign up for 10.
You're gonna exhaust yourself, right?
Find one or two that you actually care about
and figure out a way to get involved.
And when things get a little bit uncomfortable
or sticky, don't give up.
The other thing that I will also say is like,
I love this comment over here about reading.
It's like to also increase and work on your political
education, right?
About a host of different issues.
There's so many resources that are available to us.
The reason why I say don't just do that is because
there's a way that we can just become bookworms and
we're like, I read about this, but I wasn't out there.
So I just think what we need right now is, one, to increase
our political education to help us deal with what is
uncomfortable, to help us build up that muscle, and then to
actually practice that muscle.
And then I think, especially for young people, to be able
to see whether it is maybe a win in a local election, maybe
it's a win on local policy.
They're like, oh, shoot.
Like, that can happen, right?
I think is very empowAarong and exciting to see on a micro level
because that can at some point then like increase one's
imagination about what is possible at the state
and also at the national level yeah I I really don't
have too much to add to that except that maybe
to think about democracy democracy as community in
action, to Megan's point, that whether it's not even electoral
politics, but your neighborhood association, your block club,
your church, your corporation, whatever space you find
yourself in, Ana, can I tell about you?
Ana finds herself in the AI space
and is an evangelist for democracy and equity and
inclusion in that space.
So you're evangelizing in your industry.
That's democracy.
That's really what democracy makes us think about,
is how can we come together collectively to affect change.
And so I would say for young people, local
elections for sure, finding the issues
you're passionate about, and then finding the people
that are your community and become an evangelist
for democracy.
And use MOHAI to learn about the history of democracy
being pushed forward by people.
All right.
Yeah, yeah.
It's a lot of it right here.
So thank you all again.
I think that's the last question.
Oh, my God, we have another question.
Last one, last one.
Sorry for...
That's fine.
This is a bit of a weird question
as it's following up on the new constitution idea,
but with all the powerful forces, shall we say,
in the country right now,
what would the country need to look like really
in order to have a constitutional convention
that isn't just similar to the last one
where there was a bunch of really, really rich people
and there was a lot of people that were prevented
from showing up, shall we say.
I don't know if this is necessarily something
that can be answered,
but I figured it's worth a shot anyway.
That's a Megan question.
That's a really good question.
Megan, you take that one, because Vivian and
I aren't smart.
We're not smart enough to answer that.
You have an answer to answer it then, Vivian.
I have ideas.
Again, I think it's like, we look at the big, big thing
and think we can't do that.
What would happen if we had constitutional congresses
in our communities?
I mean, we can do that.
People used to organize like that all the time.
I don't think young people know that they can establish
a political action committee.
Do it.
Pull your neighbors together and say, hey, you know what?
We don't like the way this works.
And change it.
And again, you'll find a lot of that history where people
did that right here at MOHAI.
So I just think it can happen.
Yeah, I mean, the boring answer to this is right.
Your question here is about how do we have a different,
I'm not going to assume everybody's politics here,
a different RNC convention, a different DNC convention.
Is that part of the question here?
Or constitutional convention.
I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's what it's become is the two conventions.
And that's going to be a part about people, and this is the
part about people not buying into a strict two-party
system, right?
And so there's a larger conversation than this is about
the documents, and it's also about the parties, which
is, do you work inside of the Democratic Party?
You work inside of the Republican Party
and try to become a different Republican or a
different Democrat?
Or do you want to do something else?
It is a two-party control, and it comes with a tremendous
amount of resources, right?
This is the same, the reason why I said it's the same
is, like, not same, but similar to the documents,
which is, like, do we want to work to make these ideals,
like, work for us today, or are we like, this doesn't
work for us anymore, right?
And that, I think, is a larger, juicier,
complicated conversation because it is really hard,
and this is why it ties into imagination,
because it is really hard for people, apologies,
it is really hard for people to imagine a type of politics,
a running for even local office outside of the Democrat
and or Republican parties.
Because, and this is the capitalism thing,
because of how much money it is, right?
Today, what I tell my students, you cannot run for the House
today outside of 1.5 million.
If you cannot raise $1.5 million, do not
run for the House.
Do not run for the Senate if you cannot raise $3 to $5 million.
It is impossible in today's politics, right?
We are talking right now about $1 billion elections, Biden
and Trump, this past year.
I mean, not this past year, but this past election cycle, right?
And so, but part of that, a significant part of that
comes from the parties, right?
And so what you need is obviously, right, campaign
finance reform, which actually both parties are interested in.
Well, some members, right?
But you need a lot of different types of things in
order to make that happen.
It is not impossible.
People on both sides are fed up right with these
parties um so but it just takes people right um
establishing the type of vision the type of politics that
they actually want and saying that right now what we
have is not good enough and it does not serve them
anymore right hey megan and we know about art
noir for the Dixons and the Black Panthers.
Where do we find out more about your ideas?
Where do we find you?
You find me at the University of Washington.
I am doing, I rarely, I do like once or twice a year,
once or every other year, a big public lecture.
I am doing one, kind of an autopsy of the midterm
elections in January of 2027 at K-U-O-W.
K-U-O-W? So I'll do a, so if you
want to hear my take on that, which you don't.
Oh, yes, we do.
Yes, we do.
That will be the next time I do it.
But otherwise, UW website.
And share again the name of your book and where it can be
found Civil Rights and the Making of the Modern American State
That's an older book though.
I'm working on some more newer stuff about the civil rights
movement and big philanthropy That's I think more
juicier and exciting But anyways, it's been great to
spend this evening with y'all
Thank you so much.
Thank you all for being here and
for staying we appreciate it Thank you all so much
and thank you so much to our wonderful panelists.