1 00:00:10,118 --> 00:00:13,698 And now I'm excited to introduce our speakers this evening. 2 00:00:13,698 --> 00:00:16,077 Naomi Klein is an award-winning journalist 3 00:00:16,077 --> 00:00:17,620 and documentary filmmaker. 4 00:00:17,620 --> 00:00:21,039 She is the best-selling author of Doppelganger, No 5 00:00:21,039 --> 00:00:24,460 Logo, The Shock Doctrine, and other classic books. 6 00:00:24,460 --> 00:00:26,971 Klein is an associate professor of geography and 7 00:00:26,971 --> 00:00:29,664 co-director of the Center for Climate Justice at the 8 00:00:29,664 --> 00:00:31,379 University of British Columbia. 9 00:00:31,379 --> 00:00:33,640 She also writes a regular column for The Guardian. 10 00:00:34,899 --> 00:00:38,234 Astra Taylor is a writer, activist, documentarian, 11 00:00:38,234 --> 00:00:40,679 and co-founder of the Debt Collective. 12 00:00:40,679 --> 00:00:44,862 She is the author of The People's Platform, Democracy 13 00:00:44,862 --> 00:00:49,831 May Not Exist, But We'll Miss It When It's Gone, and 14 00:00:49,831 --> 00:00:52,859 The Age of Insecurity. 15 00:00:52,859 --> 00:00:55,898 Taylor regularly writes for publications including the 16 00:00:55,898 --> 00:00:57,478 New Yorker and New York Times. 17 00:00:57,478 --> 00:00:58,408 And Mayor Katie B. 18 00:00:58,408 --> 00:01:00,020 Wilson is the mayor of Seattle. 19 00:01:03,539 --> 00:01:08,165 Who took office in January 2026, a longtime transit advocate 20 00:01:08,165 --> 00:01:10,159 and community organizer. 21 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:13,524 Wilson co-founded the Transit Riders Union and then led the 22 00:01:13,524 --> 00:01:16,628 organization for over a decade, during which time she has 23 00:01:16,628 --> 00:01:19,388 extraordinary success building coalitions to build 24 00:01:19,388 --> 00:01:20,799 better transit in the city. 25 00:01:20,799 --> 00:01:21,060 Yes. 26 00:01:24,078 --> 00:01:27,129 Before the speakers come out, they would like to 27 00:01:27,129 --> 00:01:29,340 show a short video so you can hold your applause 28 00:01:29,340 --> 00:01:30,659 for a couple more minutes. 29 00:01:30,659 --> 00:01:32,480 They will be here very soon. 30 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:32,858 Thank you. 31 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:39,879 On a mountaintop in the dead of winter, 32 00:01:43,218 --> 00:01:45,718 a group of faithful men gathered an audience 33 00:01:45,718 --> 00:01:47,200 to share their vision. 34 00:01:51,420 --> 00:01:56,280 They had seen a gleaming city bathed in golden light. 35 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,140 The city would be filled with buildings so beautiful 36 00:01:59,140 --> 00:02:01,319 they would seem to float above the earth 37 00:02:01,319 --> 00:02:02,879 as if descended from heaven. 38 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:05,799 Their vision already had a name. 39 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:10,840 So, let's see if these things work. 40 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,280 They never usually work. 41 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,120 The mountaintop in question was the resort town of Davos. 42 00:02:19,020 --> 00:02:22,490 The faithful men presenting their vision were U.S. 43 00:02:22,490 --> 00:02:26,038 real estate moguls Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff. 44 00:02:26,038 --> 00:02:29,000 Well, this is a very exciting day. 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,413 See, I'm a real estate person at heart, and 46 00:02:31,413 --> 00:02:32,860 it's all about location. 47 00:02:34,580 --> 00:02:37,038 Look at this beautiful piece of property. 48 00:02:37,038 --> 00:02:39,460 Let's just plan for catastrophic success. 49 00:02:46,877 --> 00:02:49,818 Out of the horrors of a live stream genocide, 50 00:02:50,979 --> 00:02:55,139 an exclusive paradise was about to emerge fully formed. 51 00:02:56,818 --> 00:02:58,120 We've already started removing the rubble 52 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,598 and doing some of the demolition. 53 00:03:05,620 --> 00:03:08,520 We've heard the story of golden cities before. 54 00:03:09,877 --> 00:03:13,199 I thought a bit of the shining city upon a hill. 55 00:03:13,199 --> 00:03:15,479 Some versions of it are told and retold 56 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:18,937 in the sacred texts of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. 57 00:03:18,937 --> 00:03:22,395 In God's prophetic clock, the seven signs for 58 00:03:22,395 --> 00:03:23,680 the end of days. 59 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:24,717 First, the horror. 60 00:03:24,717 --> 00:03:27,020 Then, we come to the place of Armageddon. 61 00:03:27,020 --> 00:03:28,120 The mass death. 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:33,217 This is going to be your payday for the next 50 million years. 63 00:03:33,217 --> 00:03:34,580 A battle of Armageddon. 64 00:03:35,860 --> 00:03:38,979 Then, for the blessed survivors, a new Jerusalem. 65 00:03:40,479 --> 00:03:42,758 But only for the favored few. 66 00:03:42,758 --> 00:03:43,360 Hallelujah! 67 00:03:44,639 --> 00:03:49,401 The apocalyptic prophecies are just a prediction of 68 00:03:49,401 --> 00:03:52,000 what humans are likely to do. 69 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,680 Today's far right is united I mean civilization could 70 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,192 die with a bang or a whimper By their belief in variations 71 00:03:59,192 --> 00:04:03,181 of this age-old apocalyptic myth What I'm trying to focus on 72 00:04:03,181 --> 00:04:06,240 is doing as much of God's work as possible right now 73 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,377 And if that leads to the end times, okay 74 00:04:09,377 --> 00:04:12,519 This is the dark core of the rising threat and 75 00:04:12,519 --> 00:04:14,300 ideology that we call... 76 00:04:18,579 --> 00:04:21,620 Like having a company that thrives in bad times. 77 00:04:21,620 --> 00:04:24,399 And we are, you know, bad times are very good for Palantir. 78 00:04:26,199 --> 00:04:29,838 An ominous evolution is underway on the internationally 79 00:04:29,838 --> 00:04:31,278 networked hard right. 80 00:04:31,278 --> 00:04:34,720 The future of civilization could hang on this election. 81 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:40,579 We weathered the storm, and today we are the storm. 82 00:04:40,579 --> 00:04:43,680 Whether you choose violence or not, violence is coming to you. 83 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,959 You either fight back or you die. 84 00:04:46,959 --> 00:04:50,463 A shift related to the reality that humanity has 85 00:04:50,463 --> 00:04:54,319 entered an era of global-scale existential crises. 86 00:04:55,759 --> 00:04:59,581 A world where pandemics, climate emergencies, resource wars, 87 00:04:59,581 --> 00:05:01,240 and rogue tech are routine. 88 00:05:02,540 --> 00:05:05,079 And where politics stirs the pot. 89 00:05:05,079 --> 00:05:08,584 A world where the growing masses of unruly poor 90 00:05:08,584 --> 00:05:11,819 must be constantly tracked and contained. 91 00:05:11,819 --> 00:05:13,180 Welcome to billionaire bunkers. 92 00:05:13,180 --> 00:05:14,220 This is crazy. 93 00:05:14,220 --> 00:05:16,721 And where the fortunate few This $50 million 94 00:05:16,721 --> 00:05:18,778 bunker is designed To look like you're 95 00:05:18,778 --> 00:05:20,372 not in a bunker Pay top dollar for 96 00:05:20,372 --> 00:05:21,300 both protection 97 00:05:22,459 --> 00:05:23,500 And escape 98 00:05:26,759 --> 00:05:30,939 This will be a victory for real people 99 00:05:30,939 --> 00:05:33,819 After the UK voted to leave the European Union 100 00:05:33,819 --> 00:05:35,160 Triggering an economic crisis 101 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,860 Jeffrey Epstein sent a celebratory note 102 00:05:38,860 --> 00:05:41,980 to Peter Thiel, the billionaire venture capitalist. 103 00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:51,620 Trump's former chief strategist, Steve Bannon, 104 00:05:51,620 --> 00:05:53,899 reached out to Epstein soon after, 105 00:05:53,899 --> 00:05:57,319 eager to find ways to turn that tribalism 106 00:05:57,319 --> 00:06:00,360 into a global far-right counter-revolution. 107 00:06:03,959 --> 00:06:05,939 Across the globe, different countries 108 00:06:05,939 --> 00:06:08,600 have served as testing grounds for different parts 109 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:09,899 of this emergent agenda. 110 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,360 Each one feeding on collapse. 111 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,550 You can talk all you want about international niceties 112 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:21,894 and everything else, but we live in a world, 113 00:06:21,894 --> 00:06:27,720 in the real world, Jake, that is governed by strength, 114 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,259 that is governed by force, 115 00:06:33,740 --> 00:06:35,420 that is governed by power. 116 00:06:37,319 --> 00:06:40,959 Fascism always emerges in moments of systemic crisis. 117 00:06:42,459 --> 00:06:45,399 It combines state power with popular passions 118 00:06:45,399 --> 00:06:48,514 to protect elites from the threats of redistribution 119 00:06:48,514 --> 00:06:49,759 and accountability. 120 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,161 It accomplishes this by directing mass anger and 121 00:06:54,161 --> 00:06:55,720 frustrations downward, 122 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:00,680 away from the politicians and oligarchs at the top, 123 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,139 toward vulnerable scapegoats. 124 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:06,459 And always in the crosshairs? 125 00:07:07,838 --> 00:07:11,939 There is now a resurgence of the communist menace in our land. 126 00:07:11,939 --> 00:07:12,459 The left. 127 00:07:13,639 --> 00:07:16,199 This is what radical leftism is. 128 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:17,420 It is a poisonous resentment 129 00:07:18,740 --> 00:07:20,360 cloaked in the language of equality, 130 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:25,004 justice, liberation, to wreck what is beautiful 131 00:07:25,004 --> 00:07:26,139 and what is right. 132 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,600 But our point is not simply to say it's happening again. 133 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,692 Today's fascism doesn't look like the ordered 134 00:07:35,692 --> 00:07:37,120 and industrial past. 135 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,459 It looks like the frenetic, always online, 136 00:07:40,459 --> 00:07:43,540 never-stop-monetizing, bot-infested present. 137 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,725 No, today's fascists are not more dangerous 138 00:07:48,725 --> 00:07:50,519 than last century's. 139 00:07:50,519 --> 00:07:52,348 Number one, we are close to creating the genie 140 00:07:52,348 --> 00:07:53,360 that can grant any wish. 141 00:07:56,259 --> 00:08:00,740 But our world is more dangerous than their world. 142 00:08:00,740 --> 00:08:02,459 Its weapons deadlier. 143 00:08:02,459 --> 00:08:05,639 Its technologies vastly more potent. 144 00:08:06,639 --> 00:08:08,600 Its media more concentrated. 145 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:09,459 Thank you, Mr. President. 146 00:08:09,459 --> 00:08:11,939 We certainly couldn't do this without you. 147 00:08:11,939 --> 00:08:15,560 And its climate, more unstable. 148 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,526 Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the President 149 00:08:18,526 --> 00:08:20,528 of the United States, Donald J. 150 00:08:20,528 --> 00:08:21,120 Trump. 151 00:08:25,519 --> 00:08:28,879 If we're waiting for soldiers goose-stepping in formation, 152 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:30,920 Special thanks to our sponsor, Palantir. 153 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,940 we'll miss the messianic venture capitalists, 154 00:08:34,940 --> 00:08:36,658 You can do better, Ranger Tom! 155 00:08:36,658 --> 00:08:38,418 the army-controlling theocrats, 156 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,879 and the grifting manosphere influencers. 157 00:08:44,158 --> 00:08:47,038 End Times fascism is not a monolith. 158 00:08:47,038 --> 00:08:51,460 It's a dangerous and fractious alliance of three main groups. 159 00:08:53,259 --> 00:08:55,846 From the very beginning, it's been clear that God has 160 00:08:55,846 --> 00:09:00,798 a special plan and purpose for the nation of Israel. 161 00:09:00,798 --> 00:09:03,673 You know, I think AI will probably, like, most 162 00:09:03,673 --> 00:09:06,320 likely sort of lead to the end of the world. 163 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:08,677 But in the meantime, there will be great companies created. 164 00:09:12,139 --> 00:09:14,658 America is fighting with Israel for a common goal. 165 00:09:15,918 --> 00:09:19,067 To protect our future, to protect civilization 166 00:09:19,067 --> 00:09:20,879 against these barbarians. 167 00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:22,057 Good take right there. 168 00:09:22,057 --> 00:09:24,320 Sieg fucking heil, let's fucking go. 169 00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:29,340 You would prefer the human race to endure, right? 170 00:09:29,340 --> 00:09:31,000 Uh... You're hesitating. 171 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:31,620 Yeah, well, I... 172 00:09:35,139 --> 00:09:39,798 End times fascists haven't just given up on liberal democracy. 173 00:09:39,798 --> 00:09:42,932 They've given up on the possibility of a shared 174 00:09:42,932 --> 00:09:44,298 future for all of us. 175 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,460 The most powerful people in the world 176 00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:51,259 are preparing for the end of the world. 177 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,840 An end they themselves are both accelerating 178 00:09:55,899 --> 00:09:57,057 and profiting from. 179 00:10:00,677 --> 00:10:02,100 Whether in their luxury bunkers, 180 00:10:05,460 --> 00:10:07,120 locked behind fortress borders, 181 00:10:08,340 --> 00:10:13,460 or escaping Earth altogether, their souls raptured to heaven, 182 00:10:13,460 --> 00:10:15,860 Their minds uploaded to the AI cloud. 183 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,918 Their bodies hurtling in rockets to the stars. 184 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,798 They lived only to face a new nightmare. 185 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:28,860 The war against the machine. 186 00:10:36,677 --> 00:10:39,320 We have imagined Armageddon so many times 187 00:10:40,379 --> 00:10:43,759 it can almost feel inevitable. 188 00:10:45,139 --> 00:10:46,860 Except it's not. 189 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:51,460 So, which side are you on? 190 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:54,418 The side of bunkering down, 191 00:10:55,940 --> 00:10:58,980 abandoning Earth and profiting from apocalypse 192 00:11:00,538 --> 00:11:05,980 or staying loyal to this planet and its people? 193 00:11:05,980 --> 00:11:07,600 Who are you aligned with? 194 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,038 Who are you protecting? 195 00:11:09,038 --> 00:11:12,677 and making life here better. 196 00:11:53,298 --> 00:11:54,200 Love you, Seattle. 197 00:11:56,620 --> 00:11:58,158 Thanks for staying you. 198 00:12:01,019 --> 00:12:03,379 Well, good evening, everyone. 199 00:12:03,379 --> 00:12:06,080 I am Seattle Mayor Katie Wilson, and I... 200 00:12:08,379 --> 00:12:15,139 And I know which side I'm on. 201 00:12:17,177 --> 00:12:20,663 And I am joined tonight by two leaders who also 202 00:12:20,663 --> 00:12:22,677 know what side they're on. 203 00:12:22,677 --> 00:12:24,340 Astra Taylor and Naomi Klein. 204 00:12:31,298 --> 00:12:35,720 I am so honored to host both of you in our beautiful city. 205 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,399 Your work is so important to the left, 206 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:40,177 and I am proud to share a stage with you tonight 207 00:12:40,177 --> 00:12:43,278 as we build power not only to defend against fascism, 208 00:12:43,278 --> 00:12:44,538 but to create a better world. 209 00:12:45,860 --> 00:12:48,778 That was an incredibly powerful video. 210 00:12:48,778 --> 00:12:52,115 That juxtaposition of the genocide in Gaza with 211 00:12:52,115 --> 00:12:55,312 that AI-generated paradise where someone's obviously 212 00:12:55,312 --> 00:12:57,177 going to make a lot of money selling condos. 213 00:12:59,639 --> 00:13:02,580 We have to laugh because otherwise we'll cry. 214 00:13:02,580 --> 00:13:05,628 But it's just this horribly appropriate symbol for this 215 00:13:05,628 --> 00:13:08,658 movement that you both describe that has abandoned any 216 00:13:08,658 --> 00:13:11,620 commitment to our shared humanity or shared future. 217 00:13:12,798 --> 00:13:16,421 On a less emotional level, one line from that video 218 00:13:16,421 --> 00:13:19,687 really stuck out to me: "Fascism always emerges in 219 00:13:19,687 --> 00:13:22,946 moments of systemic crisis, to protect elites from the 220 00:13:22,946 --> 00:13:25,918 threats of redistribution and accountability." 221 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:30,311 So it always helps me to think a little bit historically and 222 00:13:30,311 --> 00:13:33,740 also through personal stories, And so I thought I would start 223 00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:37,149 this conversation off with a little bit of a reflection 224 00:13:37,149 --> 00:13:40,340 on how we got here to this moment of systemic crisis. 225 00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:42,278 You give the mayor a microphone, she's going to use it. 226 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,460 So I am an old millennial. 227 00:13:46,460 --> 00:13:50,057 I was in middle school and high school in the 1990s when 228 00:13:50,057 --> 00:13:51,899 the Cold War had just ended. 229 00:13:52,940 --> 00:13:54,360 History had just ended. 230 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,298 and all of the nations on earth were on a path 231 00:13:57,298 --> 00:14:01,298 to becoming prosperous liberal capitalist democracies. 232 00:14:01,298 --> 00:14:03,340 And there might be some inequality, 233 00:14:03,340 --> 00:14:06,320 but that was okay because everyone was moving up. 234 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,340 So that was kind of the promise. 235 00:14:08,340 --> 00:14:10,399 We were at the peak of a certain vision 236 00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:12,500 of neoliberal globalism. 237 00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:14,500 And of course it didn't last long. 238 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:16,440 Here in the US, confidence in that vision 239 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,139 really began cracking around the turn of the century. 240 00:14:19,139 --> 00:14:22,019 And Seattle played a real part in that history, right? 241 00:14:22,019 --> 00:14:23,557 The WTO protests, yes. 242 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,820 The WTO protests of 1999 were kind of this breakthrough moment 243 00:14:32,820 --> 00:14:35,379 for the anti-globalization movement. 244 00:14:35,379 --> 00:14:38,070 And I'm sure that there are some Battle in Seattle 245 00:14:38,070 --> 00:14:39,120 alumni in the room. 246 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:40,389 Anyone? Yeah? 247 00:14:40,389 --> 00:14:41,620 Okay. Always, always. 248 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,200 So I was not in Seattle at that time. 249 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:49,124 I was 17 years old, and I did go down to Washington, 250 00:14:49,124 --> 00:14:52,705 D.C. in the year 2000 for the IMF and World Bank 251 00:14:52,705 --> 00:14:54,700 protests of that year. 252 00:14:54,700 --> 00:14:57,379 And so that movement was in part this kind of recognition 253 00:14:57,379 --> 00:15:00,677 that that rising tide lifts all boats kind of vision 254 00:15:00,677 --> 00:15:02,990 wasn't actually how globalization was 255 00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:04,177 playing out, right? 256 00:15:04,177 --> 00:15:06,658 And it was also this moment of awakening, really, 257 00:15:06,658 --> 00:15:09,378 for the climate crisis that you've written so much about, 258 00:15:09,378 --> 00:15:12,014 and the fact that the people in power didn't really 259 00:15:12,014 --> 00:15:13,418 have any answer to that. 260 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,311 Fast forward to 2008, when I think the real systemic crisis 261 00:15:18,311 --> 00:15:21,639 began, and the Great Recession that followed that, that 262 00:15:21,639 --> 00:15:24,038 prompted the Occupy movement here in the US. 263 00:15:24,038 --> 00:15:26,523 And that was really this recognition that 264 00:15:26,523 --> 00:15:29,220 that rising tide lifts all boats was no longer 265 00:15:29,220 --> 00:15:30,918 believable here in the US either, right? 266 00:15:30,918 --> 00:15:34,081 It wasn't just other countries and it wasn't even just 267 00:15:34,081 --> 00:15:35,980 autoworkers getting the shaft. 268 00:15:35,980 --> 00:15:38,884 There was now this whole generation of young people 269 00:15:38,884 --> 00:15:41,725 who realized that they had less economic security 270 00:15:41,725 --> 00:15:43,080 than their parents did. 271 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,369 And that kind of loss of legitimacy of the status 272 00:15:46,369 --> 00:15:49,326 quo really opened up space for the growth of 273 00:15:49,326 --> 00:15:51,220 new left movements, right? 274 00:15:51,220 --> 00:15:53,129 Including that kind of mainstreaming of 275 00:15:53,129 --> 00:15:55,379 democratic socialism that we're seeing today. 276 00:15:56,820 --> 00:15:57,720 You can clap for that. 277 00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:03,764 And that's really the space in which I became a community 278 00:16:03,764 --> 00:16:06,855 organizer and did the work that eventually led to my 279 00:16:06,855 --> 00:16:08,500 run for mayor last year. 280 00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:11,283 And to bring this back to a quote from your video, those 281 00:16:11,283 --> 00:16:14,874 left movements generally direct their fire at elites, right, 282 00:16:14,874 --> 00:16:18,120 and call for redistribution and accountability. 283 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,230 And then on the other side, the collapse of that kind of 284 00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:24,541 neoliberal vision was also that fertile ground for these 285 00:16:24,541 --> 00:16:28,038 movements that you both describe that start from the premise 286 00:16:28,038 --> 00:16:31,220 that maybe we're not all going to make it, right? 287 00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:34,514 That maybe we are in a zero sum game and the future 288 00:16:34,514 --> 00:16:36,000 is just for some of us. 289 00:16:37,259 --> 00:16:40,888 And, you know, as I was thinking through how to tell this 290 00:16:40,888 --> 00:16:44,897 story, I was reflecting on how remarkable it is that, like, 291 00:16:44,897 --> 00:16:49,139 we're 18 years after 2008 now, and we are still in this crisis 292 00:16:49,139 --> 00:16:52,423 of legitimacy that's, like, only deepened and has fed that 293 00:16:52,423 --> 00:16:55,320 political polarization that we're seeing worldwide. 294 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:58,797 So with that, I would love to ask you to define end times 295 00:16:58,797 --> 00:17:02,120 fascism a little bit more for the audience and maybe 296 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,519 tell us what makes it the right name for this movement 297 00:17:05,519 --> 00:17:08,842 that you're writing about in the book and the moment 298 00:17:08,842 --> 00:17:10,615 that we're living through. 299 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,605 Well, thank you so much for grounding us in that 300 00:17:16,605 --> 00:17:18,640 history and situating us. 301 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:25,775 And it's a central argument in our book that history 302 00:17:25,775 --> 00:17:29,259 doesn't repeat on a loop. 303 00:17:29,259 --> 00:17:31,057 it accumulates. 304 00:17:31,057 --> 00:17:34,011 And there are a lot of ways of 305 00:17:34,011 --> 00:17:39,538 understanding authoritarianism and fascism have 306 00:17:39,538 --> 00:17:44,654 exclusively looked to 80 years ago, 100 307 00:17:44,654 --> 00:17:47,700 years ago, for a template. 308 00:17:47,700 --> 00:17:52,549 And we want to make the argument that the world has changed and 309 00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:54,740 so has the far right, right? 310 00:17:54,740 --> 00:18:00,480 And so I'll come back to the definition, 311 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,337 but I just wanna say thank you so much for hosting us. 312 00:18:04,337 --> 00:18:07,460 And it's a first for Astra and I to be in conversation 313 00:18:07,460 --> 00:18:10,960 with a mayor of a great city like this. 314 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:18,240 And I think it is a testament to the movements 315 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,400 of this city that you come out of, 316 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,500 that I have been proud to support over the years. 317 00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:29,240 And yeah, you're in the book. 318 00:18:31,077 --> 00:18:35,240 But you gotta get towards the end 319 00:18:37,019 --> 00:18:40,009 where we talk about, it's a section called 320 00:18:40,009 --> 00:18:42,298 The Leavers Versus The Stayers, right? 321 00:18:43,597 --> 00:18:48,799 And this dream of escape, of paradise everywhere but here, 322 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:54,217 right, is being challenged by this new wave of bold political 323 00:18:54,217 --> 00:18:59,207 leaders, some elected, some in trade unions, some in new 324 00:18:59,207 --> 00:19:04,516 forms of organizations and unions like the Debt Collective 325 00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:06,640 that Astra co-founded. 326 00:19:08,420 --> 00:19:11,932 And these movements and electeds are increasingly 327 00:19:11,932 --> 00:19:13,159 coming together. 328 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:19,323 And I just want to shout out the incredible folks in New 329 00:19:19,323 --> 00:19:22,199 York City today who 400 -- 330 00:19:26,617 --> 00:19:31,460 400 of people showed up outside the United Nations to say 331 00:19:31,460 --> 00:19:34,190 that it should be Benjamin Netanyahu who was 332 00:19:34,190 --> 00:19:35,740 arrested for war crimes. 333 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,577 And 104 people were arrested, put their bodies on the lines, 334 00:19:47,577 --> 00:19:51,480 and several of those people are going to Congress 335 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,413 after this election and are democratic socialists 336 00:19:55,413 --> 00:19:59,778 and are part of this kind of extraordinary incoming class. 337 00:19:59,778 --> 00:20:03,640 You had the whole kind of DSA cohort there in the streets, 338 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,419 organized by our beloved Jewish Voice for Peace. 339 00:20:06,420 --> 00:20:08,900 And I know we have some JVPers in the crowd. 340 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,200 So it was a powerful day. 341 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:13,298 It was a powerful day. 342 00:20:14,538 --> 00:20:18,240 You know, I think that is showing how that counter 343 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:22,123 movement of commitment to place, right, to here, to 344 00:20:22,123 --> 00:20:24,199 making here better, right? 345 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,269 We have so much work to do here, but we're not 346 00:20:27,269 --> 00:20:28,979 willing to write it off. 347 00:20:30,337 --> 00:20:34,635 So, as we say, you know, capitalism, we think of 348 00:20:34,635 --> 00:20:40,038 fascism as capitalism's most ferocious threat response. 349 00:20:41,077 --> 00:20:46,500 It emerges during times of crisis when the system is 350 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:51,586 collapsing and failing people on a mass scale right so 351 00:20:51,586 --> 00:20:55,297 you know in this country there was a real threat 352 00:20:55,297 --> 00:20:58,873 of a flip to fascism in the 1930s, following 353 00:20:58,873 --> 00:21:02,980 in Europe's footsteps, in the midst of the Great 354 00:21:02,980 --> 00:21:04,726 Depression, right? 355 00:21:04,726 --> 00:21:06,981 And it was the New Deal that 356 00:21:06,981 --> 00:21:09,959 really pulled people back, right? 357 00:21:09,959 --> 00:21:13,136 But if we think about the emergence of 358 00:21:13,136 --> 00:21:18,163 fascism in Europe in the wreckage of the First World 359 00:21:18,163 --> 00:21:20,959 War amidst mass disablement. 360 00:21:22,259 --> 00:21:23,909 And then the market shock. 361 00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:26,981 So, you know, people were really, really hurting 362 00:21:26,981 --> 00:21:29,863 and they were asking deep questions about, you 363 00:21:29,863 --> 00:21:33,142 know, not just capitalism, but civilization itself. 364 00:21:33,142 --> 00:21:35,182 I mean, This was a time of great 365 00:21:35,182 --> 00:21:38,057 radicalism and just total loss of faith. 366 00:21:38,057 --> 00:21:41,420 Millions of people had been sent into a senseless war. 367 00:21:41,420 --> 00:21:43,239 There was so much rage. 368 00:21:43,239 --> 00:21:46,971 And there was a real threat from below because there had just 369 00:21:46,971 --> 00:21:48,837 been the Russian Revolution. 370 00:21:48,837 --> 00:21:52,596 Socialist parties were surging in every country. 371 00:21:52,596 --> 00:21:54,096 And elites were worried. 372 00:21:54,096 --> 00:21:57,587 And so they redirected the rage, that public 373 00:21:57,587 --> 00:21:59,759 rage, towards scapegoats. 374 00:22:01,616 --> 00:22:05,019 When we add end times before fascism, what 375 00:22:05,019 --> 00:22:09,199 we're saying is that our world is different, right? 376 00:22:09,199 --> 00:22:12,959 Our crises are different from their crises. 377 00:22:12,959 --> 00:22:16,097 They did not know a world with nuclear weapons. 378 00:22:17,096 --> 00:22:19,836 It's not their imagination, right? 379 00:22:19,836 --> 00:22:22,136 I know this room is full of people 380 00:22:22,136 --> 00:22:25,719 who understand that the climate crisis 381 00:22:25,719 --> 00:22:29,576 that we have been warning about for years and years 382 00:22:29,576 --> 00:22:31,856 is now not something off in the distance, 383 00:22:31,856 --> 00:22:35,057 that people are dying in heat domes 384 00:22:35,057 --> 00:22:37,699 right here in the Pacific Northwest. 385 00:22:37,699 --> 00:22:40,459 You know, I live in Vancouver where we had the deadliest, 386 00:22:40,459 --> 00:22:44,403 like we had many more fatalities than you did here in Seattle 387 00:22:44,403 --> 00:22:46,140 during the 2021 heat dome. 388 00:22:47,576 --> 00:22:51,785 More than 600 people died in British Columbia. 389 00:22:51,785 --> 00:22:55,557 But we saw 16,000 excess deaths in one week 390 00:22:55,557 --> 00:22:59,304 in Europe this summer, the largest evacuations in 391 00:22:59,304 --> 00:23:02,959 France since the Second World War, it looked like 392 00:23:02,959 --> 00:23:03,605 a war. 393 00:23:03,605 --> 00:23:07,490 And so the emergence of these global 394 00:23:07,490 --> 00:23:12,798 scale crises, including COVID, has triggered an 395 00:23:12,798 --> 00:23:15,576 apocalyptic imaginary on the right. 396 00:23:15,576 --> 00:23:19,519 And they're now not telling a story of, 397 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:21,617 okay, there's going to be a great battle, 398 00:23:21,617 --> 00:23:23,337 there's going to be apocalyptic violence, 399 00:23:23,337 --> 00:23:27,038 but then there'll be a future in this world, right? 400 00:23:27,038 --> 00:23:29,290 The story that the fascists were telling 401 00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:32,357 in the 20th century was, you can have a nice house 402 00:23:32,357 --> 00:23:34,944 stolen from the Jews and a nice farm 403 00:23:34,944 --> 00:23:36,700 stolen from the Slavs. 404 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:40,557 It would be in this domain. 405 00:23:40,557 --> 00:23:45,999 You listen to people like Ben-Gvir in Israel 406 00:23:45,999 --> 00:23:49,159 or Elon Musk here. 407 00:23:49,159 --> 00:23:54,038 All of the hope, all of the future horizon 408 00:23:54,038 --> 00:23:55,659 is in another world. 409 00:23:55,659 --> 00:23:58,798 It is imagining collapse. 410 00:23:58,798 --> 00:24:01,836 They're constantly talking about the end of the world. 411 00:24:01,836 --> 00:24:06,778 And they are very focused on how the in-group survives, 412 00:24:06,778 --> 00:24:09,097 that it's really a war over who's going to 413 00:24:09,097 --> 00:24:10,259 survive the future. 414 00:24:10,259 --> 00:24:12,208 And this is something that many of us in the 415 00:24:12,208 --> 00:24:17,105 climate movement predicted, that eventually, you know, 416 00:24:17,105 --> 00:24:22,557 within a hierarchical, winner-takes-all economic model, 417 00:24:22,557 --> 00:24:26,019 fascism would become climate adaptation. 418 00:24:26,019 --> 00:24:29,923 Once you could no longer deny the reality of climate change 419 00:24:29,923 --> 00:24:33,578 all that's left to deny is the humanity of your fellow 420 00:24:33,578 --> 00:24:36,891 humans right all that's left to adapt to is the 421 00:24:36,891 --> 00:24:40,692 idea that you're going to live with mass death and so we 422 00:24:40,692 --> 00:24:44,557 think we need to open our eyes wide to the fact that this is 423 00:24:44,557 --> 00:24:47,439 where the right is going, because we have to fight them. 424 00:24:47,439 --> 00:24:50,651 I mean, this is not how we're going to adapt 425 00:24:50,651 --> 00:24:52,116 to climate change. 426 00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:55,557 We need to prepare, and we need to have a vision of the future 427 00:24:55,557 --> 00:24:58,317 where everybody has a right to thrive, right? 428 00:24:58,317 --> 00:24:59,659 And we learn to live together. 429 00:25:00,778 --> 00:25:01,298 Thank you. 430 00:25:05,159 --> 00:25:09,439 Yeah, it's such an honor to be here. 431 00:25:09,439 --> 00:25:13,242 I mean, to tie also what Naomi just said in your question to 432 00:25:13,242 --> 00:25:16,971 the remarks you gave, we argue in the book that fascism is 433 00:25:16,971 --> 00:25:20,776 also, in addition to being a response to systemic crises, 434 00:25:20,776 --> 00:25:24,660 is also a response to these credible threats from the left. 435 00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:28,174 And so I think we see that, we saw that a century ago 436 00:25:28,174 --> 00:25:32,290 when the Russian Revolution loomed large and people were 437 00:25:32,290 --> 00:25:34,180 talking about socialism. 438 00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:37,095 We also see it in the history of fascism that 439 00:25:37,095 --> 00:25:40,740 sometimes doesn't get accounted for or named, right? 440 00:25:40,740 --> 00:25:44,105 So we know that the Nazis took inspiration from the 441 00:25:44,105 --> 00:25:47,153 Jim Crow South and that Jim Crow was a response 442 00:25:47,153 --> 00:25:49,000 to reconstruction, right? 443 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,557 To the idea of a multiracial democracy where formerly 444 00:25:52,557 --> 00:25:56,038 enslaved people were pushing for things like public 445 00:25:56,038 --> 00:25:59,519 education and actually representative elections. 446 00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:02,932 And so you know we have spent a lot of time 447 00:26:02,932 --> 00:26:06,739 on the left and we feel like our you know we often 448 00:26:06,739 --> 00:26:08,778 felt like our movements were not very strong and 449 00:26:08,778 --> 00:26:10,817 not as effective as we wanted but certainly that 450 00:26:10,817 --> 00:26:14,251 post-occupy wave right of black lives matter 451 00:26:14,251 --> 00:26:17,778 of me too of workers organizing of unions right 452 00:26:17,778 --> 00:26:21,279 becoming popular again and people aspiring to found them 453 00:26:21,279 --> 00:26:24,746 and build them and build power, really irritated the 454 00:26:24,746 --> 00:26:26,400 hell out of these guys. 455 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:31,538 And that is part of what triggered this response, right? 456 00:26:32,856 --> 00:26:35,164 When they're faced with fairness or fascism, 457 00:26:35,164 --> 00:26:36,259 they choose fascism. 458 00:26:38,856 --> 00:26:42,219 Well, so you write about three different groups or facets 459 00:26:42,219 --> 00:26:44,038 that make up end times fascism. 460 00:26:44,038 --> 00:26:47,419 Maybe we can dig a little bit into each one individually. 461 00:26:47,419 --> 00:26:49,691 So you start the book by focusing on 462 00:26:49,691 --> 00:26:51,179 religious end timers. 463 00:26:51,179 --> 00:26:53,034 Do you want to maybe talk a little bit about 464 00:26:53,034 --> 00:26:55,097 some of the key figures and ideas in that group? 465 00:26:56,836 --> 00:27:02,169 Yeah, so the book grew out of our attempt to understand what 466 00:27:02,169 --> 00:27:04,778 was kind of binding together 467 00:27:05,959 --> 00:27:08,817 the coalition that had brought Trump to power. 468 00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:13,634 We know that evangelicals were always a significant 469 00:27:13,634 --> 00:27:16,679 part of that coalition, but he came to power 470 00:27:16,679 --> 00:27:19,876 in the midst of the genocide in Gaza. 471 00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:24,500 And he made appointments like Mike Huckabee, 472 00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:28,439 who is a Christian Zionist, to be the ambassador to Israel. 473 00:27:28,439 --> 00:27:31,136 And was clearly, some people had told themselves 474 00:27:31,136 --> 00:27:33,616 that Trump was going to be a peace candidate. 475 00:27:33,616 --> 00:27:37,999 He was enthusiastically talking about Gaza 476 00:27:37,999 --> 00:27:42,557 as a blank slate as this redevelopment project. 477 00:27:42,557 --> 00:27:47,959 And then there was expanding the war into Iran, 478 00:27:47,959 --> 00:27:50,160 even before this latest war. 479 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,105 There was a war before that where they went further than 480 00:27:55,105 --> 00:27:57,939 any US government before. 481 00:27:57,939 --> 00:28:04,557 So we start to hear these apocalyptic kind of excitements 482 00:28:04,557 --> 00:28:05,855 about, okay, this is it. 483 00:28:05,855 --> 00:28:07,480 This is Armageddon, you know. 484 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,557 But the reason why the first part of the 485 00:28:09,557 --> 00:28:13,709 book kind of digs deep into the people who really do 486 00:28:13,709 --> 00:28:17,660 believe that in the kind of different messianic 487 00:28:17,660 --> 00:28:20,910 stories, like if you're a Christian Zionist, you're basing 488 00:28:20,910 --> 00:28:22,597 this on the book of Revelation. 489 00:28:22,597 --> 00:28:26,981 You believe that you're going to be raptured up to heaven, but 490 00:28:26,981 --> 00:28:30,365 the Holy Land is very important in the story, you've got 491 00:28:30,365 --> 00:28:31,969 to reconstruct the third temple. 492 00:28:31,969 --> 00:28:33,856 Of course, you've got a problem because 493 00:28:33,856 --> 00:28:35,923 Al-Aqsa's there, right? 494 00:28:35,923 --> 00:28:39,270 And then within the Israeli government, 495 00:28:39,270 --> 00:28:41,337 there's the same focus on 496 00:28:42,419 --> 00:28:45,778 Al-Aqsa, which they call Temple Mount, and you have figures 497 00:28:45,778 --> 00:28:49,508 like Itamar Ben-Gvir, who's the Minister of National Security, 498 00:28:49,508 --> 00:28:52,999 who's constantly pushing further and further into Al-Aqsa. 499 00:28:52,999 --> 00:28:55,739 And this is very incendiary. 500 00:28:55,739 --> 00:28:59,096 I mean, one of the things that Astra and I always say is, 501 00:28:59,096 --> 00:29:00,439 you know, we think they're wrong, 502 00:29:00,439 --> 00:29:02,499 that this isn't going to bring the Messiah, 503 00:29:02,499 --> 00:29:05,239 but that doesn't mean that they can't trigger Armageddon, right? 504 00:29:06,259 --> 00:29:10,739 These incursions onto Al-Aqsa are lighting, you know, 505 00:29:10,739 --> 00:29:13,616 a match in an already very volatile region 506 00:29:13,616 --> 00:29:15,519 and if they actually do attack Al-Aqsa 507 00:29:15,519 --> 00:29:20,164 and it's been attacked before, this, you know, would probably 508 00:29:20,164 --> 00:29:24,481 trigger, you know, World War III with nukes, and we, you 509 00:29:24,481 --> 00:29:28,796 know, so they have the power to create an Armageddon 510 00:29:28,796 --> 00:29:31,576 that we are all in, so we have to pay attention 511 00:29:31,576 --> 00:29:33,555 to them, and Astra and I, unfortunately, 512 00:29:33,555 --> 00:29:37,394 have had to learn about spotless red heifers and 513 00:29:37,394 --> 00:29:40,239 all kinds of animal sacrifices. 514 00:29:40,239 --> 00:29:43,979 And, you know, we wish we didn't, 515 00:29:43,979 --> 00:29:48,616 but we decided that they had become powerful enough, 516 00:29:48,616 --> 00:29:50,136 both within the Israeli government, 517 00:29:50,136 --> 00:29:51,876 not to say that they control the whole government, 518 00:29:51,876 --> 00:29:54,557 but they control more parts of the government 519 00:29:54,557 --> 00:29:57,739 that has ever happened before in the history of the country, 520 00:29:57,739 --> 00:29:59,354 and more parts of the U.S. 521 00:29:59,354 --> 00:30:01,919 government. They're not the whole coalition. 522 00:30:01,919 --> 00:30:05,673 The other reason why we spend some time with them 523 00:30:05,673 --> 00:30:09,807 is because that story of, you know, disease, floods, 524 00:30:09,807 --> 00:30:13,941 rivers of blood, like destruction, out of that comes 525 00:30:13,941 --> 00:30:17,979 the elevator to the sky, the golden city, as you saw. 526 00:30:17,979 --> 00:30:22,199 That's the template that the other people in the 527 00:30:22,199 --> 00:30:24,519 coalition are following. 528 00:30:24,519 --> 00:30:26,231 And I often felt this when I was writing 529 00:30:26,231 --> 00:30:28,103 about the shock doctrine and what I call 530 00:30:28,103 --> 00:30:29,278 disaster capitalism. 531 00:30:30,538 --> 00:30:34,719 I had a short section in the shock doctrine, 532 00:30:34,719 --> 00:30:36,259 which came out almost 20 years ago. 533 00:30:37,919 --> 00:30:41,519 after Hurricane Katrina, which figures prominently 534 00:30:41,519 --> 00:30:44,557 in that book, there started to be more and more 535 00:30:45,739 --> 00:30:48,968 companies selling privatized rescue, right? 536 00:30:48,968 --> 00:30:51,038 Like after seeing a major U.S. 537 00:30:51,038 --> 00:30:53,616 city drown the way New Orleans did, there 538 00:30:53,616 --> 00:30:56,651 was a new, there was an airline, it was a short-lived 539 00:30:56,651 --> 00:30:59,057 airline, but it was called HelpJet. 540 00:30:59,057 --> 00:31:01,250 It was a private airline, and 541 00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:04,999 they sold memberships to rich people in Florida, 542 00:31:04,999 --> 00:31:08,903 and you could become a member of HelpJet, and their tagline 543 00:31:08,903 --> 00:31:12,086 was, turn your disaster into a luxury vacation, and 544 00:31:12,086 --> 00:31:14,663 they would tell you if a hurricane was headed to 545 00:31:14,663 --> 00:31:18,391 your beachfront property for real, and they would send 546 00:31:18,391 --> 00:31:22,836 limousines and pick you up and drive you to the airport to 547 00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:27,155 the private help jet and book your holiday for you 548 00:31:27,155 --> 00:31:29,160 at a five-star resort. 549 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,184 And so when I wrote about this, I thought, 550 00:31:31,184 --> 00:31:32,376 isn't this the rapture? 551 00:31:32,376 --> 00:31:36,096 Like, aren't they just doing the rapture down here? 552 00:31:36,096 --> 00:31:40,057 And so it's just, it's been a process, right? 553 00:31:40,057 --> 00:31:42,356 History accumulates, and here we are. 554 00:31:44,336 --> 00:31:45,719 Wow, that's wild. 555 00:31:46,719 --> 00:31:50,679 Okay, so that's the religious end timers. 556 00:31:50,679 --> 00:31:54,278 Why don't we move on to the big tech end timers? 557 00:31:54,278 --> 00:31:55,336 Yeah, the tech guys. 558 00:31:55,336 --> 00:31:58,115 So they're playing with this sort of secular 559 00:31:58,115 --> 00:31:59,837 version of the same script. 560 00:31:59,837 --> 00:32:00,719 And we see this. 561 00:32:00,719 --> 00:32:03,582 I mean, the week before our book came out, right, 562 00:32:03,582 --> 00:32:06,159 all the headlines are about the apocalypse 563 00:32:06,159 --> 00:32:10,057 and is AI going to wipe out humanity? 564 00:32:10,057 --> 00:32:11,999 And we have lots of disagreements 565 00:32:11,999 --> 00:32:14,519 in terms of what they're saying about their technology 566 00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:17,500 and what its capacities are and whether it's 567 00:32:17,500 --> 00:32:18,616 super intelligent. 568 00:32:18,616 --> 00:32:24,959 But we do believe that they are in this story 569 00:32:24,959 --> 00:32:28,239 where it's worth burning everything down, 570 00:32:28,239 --> 00:32:30,136 burning all of the energy that it will take 571 00:32:30,136 --> 00:32:32,650 to build their data centers and possibly risking 572 00:32:32,650 --> 00:32:34,672 a jobs Armageddon to get to what 573 00:32:34,672 --> 00:32:38,999 they are telling us is either going to be paradise 574 00:32:38,999 --> 00:32:41,278 or the end of the world. 575 00:32:41,278 --> 00:32:44,376 And that those are two sides of the same coin, right? 576 00:32:44,376 --> 00:32:47,077 Elon Musk is like, I'm building a digital demon. 577 00:32:47,077 --> 00:32:49,317 No, it's a digital god. 578 00:32:49,317 --> 00:32:52,376 Or the way that they speak in this messianic terms, 579 00:32:52,376 --> 00:32:55,798 all of the tech executives about how if it goes well, 580 00:32:59,076 --> 00:33:02,509 all of the mysteries of the universe will be revealed and 581 00:33:02,509 --> 00:33:05,420 like we'll live forever you know cancer will be cured and 582 00:33:05,420 --> 00:33:07,112 we won't have to worry about climate change 583 00:33:07,112 --> 00:33:09,952 because we'll know how to solve it never mind that 584 00:33:09,952 --> 00:33:13,757 we do know how to address it already and so you know 585 00:33:13,757 --> 00:33:17,152 and they speak you know One reason we made the video 586 00:33:17,152 --> 00:33:20,557 was because quoting these people makes you sound insane. 587 00:33:21,836 --> 00:33:24,717 And we just felt that it would be much more effective to 588 00:33:24,717 --> 00:33:26,057 put it in their own words. 589 00:33:26,057 --> 00:33:28,460 But there are so many things that are in the book that 590 00:33:28,460 --> 00:33:29,798 we couldn't put in the video. 591 00:33:29,798 --> 00:33:33,500 So Elon Musk says it's increasingly looking like humans 592 00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:37,759 are the biological bootloader for digital superintelligence. 593 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:41,117 We're just the carbon-based grist for Grok. 594 00:33:43,336 --> 00:33:45,919 And computer scientists saying we should rejoice 595 00:33:45,919 --> 00:33:48,699 in being superseded by these digital beings 596 00:33:48,699 --> 00:33:52,739 or Larry Page of Google saying that it's speciesist 597 00:33:52,739 --> 00:33:56,920 to not want to have humanity end and the next digital 598 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,576 beings take over. 599 00:33:58,576 --> 00:34:01,924 So there is this, you know, Umberto Eco, we quote 600 00:34:01,924 --> 00:34:03,765 in the beginning, who of course is the writer 601 00:34:03,765 --> 00:34:06,307 who lived under Mussolini, talks about one feature 602 00:34:06,307 --> 00:34:08,739 of fascism being an Armageddon complex. 603 00:34:08,739 --> 00:34:12,168 And it's this idea that, yes, out of destruction, 604 00:34:12,168 --> 00:34:13,759 some sort of paradise. 605 00:34:13,759 --> 00:34:19,318 And so these men, in a way, they are risible. 606 00:34:19,318 --> 00:34:20,338 We should laugh at them. 607 00:34:20,338 --> 00:34:25,179 But we also take very seriously when a figure like Dario Amodei 608 00:34:25,179 --> 00:34:28,679 or Elon Musk says there's a 20 or 25% chance 609 00:34:28,679 --> 00:34:32,318 I'm building something that will destroy everything. 610 00:34:32,318 --> 00:34:35,458 We take seriously that he's okay with that math. 611 00:34:36,777 --> 00:34:40,391 Like, I wouldn't do something that had a 25% chance 612 00:34:40,391 --> 00:34:42,983 of making my dog sick, let alone, like, 613 00:34:42,983 --> 00:34:44,398 destroying humanity. 614 00:34:44,398 --> 00:34:46,672 So we look at this and it's like, what is, 615 00:34:46,672 --> 00:34:48,259 what's driving these guys? 616 00:34:48,259 --> 00:34:50,786 You know, why did they line up with Trump 617 00:34:50,786 --> 00:34:52,318 and go full-on fascist? 618 00:34:52,318 --> 00:34:54,898 And we argue in the book that there's a material argument, 619 00:34:54,898 --> 00:34:57,918 that they believe in this messianic way 620 00:34:57,918 --> 00:34:59,699 they are building the final technology, 621 00:34:59,699 --> 00:35:02,119 the ultimate invention, this is their words, 622 00:35:02,119 --> 00:35:05,954 that they are building AGI, which will do all of the 623 00:35:05,954 --> 00:35:07,659 economically valuable work. 624 00:35:07,659 --> 00:35:10,900 And so that drive to own the world, 625 00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:13,159 even if you have to destroy it in the quest, 626 00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:16,719 is what flipped them. 627 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,099 Not that they were flipped 100%. 628 00:35:18,099 --> 00:35:19,878 I mean, there's a long history of right-wing politics 629 00:35:19,878 --> 00:35:23,659 in Silicon Valley, but that they knew that rolling 630 00:35:23,659 --> 00:35:27,079 these technologies out would not be popular. 631 00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:29,465 They knew that all of us in this room were not going, like, you 632 00:35:29,465 --> 00:35:30,420 know what I really want? 633 00:35:30,420 --> 00:35:32,161 I want a product that will take 634 00:35:32,161 --> 00:35:34,335 all the jobs and destroy humanity. 635 00:35:34,335 --> 00:35:36,063 We weren't asking for that. 636 00:35:36,063 --> 00:35:38,021 And so they knew they needed a strong 637 00:35:38,021 --> 00:35:38,630 man to do it. 638 00:35:38,630 --> 00:35:40,340 They knew that it wouldn't be like 639 00:35:40,340 --> 00:35:43,172 rolling out Instagram or Airbnb. 640 00:35:43,172 --> 00:35:45,126 And so they needed Trump. 641 00:35:45,126 --> 00:35:48,659 And we show in the book that he needed them too, 642 00:35:48,659 --> 00:35:51,380 because they promised him a whole lot of money. 643 00:35:51,380 --> 00:35:54,239 And they said, hey, this can revive your favorite 644 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,387 industry, the fossil fuel sector, and will be an 645 00:35:57,387 --> 00:36:00,297 excuse to bring a bunch of coal plants back to 646 00:36:00,297 --> 00:36:03,630 life and enrich your other buddies and so there's 647 00:36:03,630 --> 00:36:06,960 a material basis right like for what they've done 648 00:36:08,438 --> 00:36:11,195 and then the rational they rationalize it with 649 00:36:11,195 --> 00:36:13,880 these apocalyptic stories and with all of the 650 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,231 eugenic you know the eugenicist thought that also 651 00:36:16,231 --> 00:36:18,639 is circulating in silicon valley right because you 652 00:36:18,639 --> 00:36:22,181 need stories like that when you're basically engaging in 653 00:36:22,181 --> 00:36:25,771 an activity that will destroy the world, that you believe 654 00:36:25,771 --> 00:36:29,559 will displace people and immiserate them, then you need 655 00:36:29,559 --> 00:36:31,422 to rationalize that by saying, "Well, I'm 656 00:36:31,422 --> 00:36:32,539 smarter than everybody. 657 00:36:32,539 --> 00:36:36,081 I'm somewhere between the human and the digital beings who 658 00:36:36,081 --> 00:36:37,960 are going to rule everything." 659 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,518 I mean, being in Seattle, I feel like... 660 00:36:41,518 --> 00:36:43,728 Well, first of all, I want to shout out Amazon 661 00:36:43,728 --> 00:36:45,219 Workers for Climate Justice. 662 00:36:49,179 --> 00:36:52,373 But I think, you know, if we think about the way, you know, 663 00:36:52,373 --> 00:36:54,139 it's a fantastic group, the way 664 00:36:56,338 --> 00:36:59,829 they were treated at the beginning and then eventually 665 00:36:59,829 --> 00:37:02,777 the way they were treated, which was very different. 666 00:37:02,777 --> 00:37:06,318 I mean, and I think that it sort of tracks somewhat 667 00:37:06,318 --> 00:37:07,938 how the company itself changed. 668 00:37:07,938 --> 00:37:11,039 And it isn't just Amazon, it's the whole sector, right? 669 00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:16,309 That, you know, five years ago, all of these companies 670 00:37:16,309 --> 00:37:20,559 were presenting themselves as a new kind of industry 671 00:37:20,559 --> 00:37:25,458 that was blue and green and dematerialized 672 00:37:25,458 --> 00:37:30,152 and that they were, you know, not just delivering these 673 00:37:30,152 --> 00:37:34,300 remarkable technologies, but lifting the U.S. 674 00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:38,539 economy out of the dirty industrial age, right? 675 00:37:38,539 --> 00:37:43,295 And everybody had net zero pledges, and everybody 676 00:37:43,295 --> 00:37:47,858 had climate moonshots, and everybody, not everybody, 677 00:37:47,858 --> 00:37:50,579 only one guy had a climate pledge arena. 678 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:57,018 But they were all making the climate pledges, right? 679 00:37:57,018 --> 00:37:59,759 Like they were all saying, we are going to get to net zero. 680 00:37:59,759 --> 00:38:02,559 We are going to be the greenest companies in the world. 681 00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:05,559 And that made it possible for Democrats 682 00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:09,550 to put their arms around them and feel perfectly 683 00:38:09,550 --> 00:38:10,539 good about that. 684 00:38:10,539 --> 00:38:14,597 What we have seen with AI and what Trump understood about 685 00:38:14,597 --> 00:38:18,639 AI was that, and we track this in the book, and this is 686 00:38:18,639 --> 00:38:22,605 part of what really interested me because I could not 687 00:38:22,605 --> 00:38:27,190 understand how Trump was lining up with these tech executives 688 00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:31,318 because I, some of you may know from reading Doppelganger 689 00:38:31,318 --> 00:38:34,358 that I have an unhealthy interest in Steve Bannon 690 00:38:34,358 --> 00:38:37,699 and I have listened to hundreds of hours of his show. 691 00:38:37,699 --> 00:38:41,878 And so I was very well aware that the MAGA base 692 00:38:41,878 --> 00:38:47,000 had been fed a steady diet of anti-big tech hatred, right? 693 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,797 All during COVID. 694 00:38:48,797 --> 00:38:50,099 They had been de-platformed. 695 00:38:50,099 --> 00:38:51,179 They had been censored. 696 00:38:51,179 --> 00:38:53,980 Bill Gates wanted to inject them with little tiny cameras 697 00:38:53,980 --> 00:38:57,219 and they were only pretending it was a vaccine. 698 00:38:57,219 --> 00:39:00,518 You know, the COVID verification app 699 00:39:00,518 --> 00:39:03,219 was a plot to listen to our phone call. 700 00:39:03,219 --> 00:39:05,079 So it was very anti-surveillance, 701 00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:06,797 it was very anti-big tech. 702 00:39:06,797 --> 00:39:09,929 And now all of a sudden, Trump is lining up to go 703 00:39:09,929 --> 00:39:13,137 all in on a technology that has surveillance 704 00:39:13,137 --> 00:39:15,777 capacities, the likes of which, you know, 705 00:39:15,777 --> 00:39:17,998 we couldn't have imagined. 706 00:39:17,998 --> 00:39:21,159 So how did they come together? 707 00:39:21,159 --> 00:39:24,692 And as Astra said, Trump at a certain point during the 708 00:39:24,692 --> 00:39:28,626 campaign was wined and dined by folks like Marc Andreessen 709 00:39:28,626 --> 00:39:32,239 and David Sacks, who ended up being his AI crypto czar. 710 00:39:33,297 --> 00:39:36,909 And they explained to him how ravenous artificial 711 00:39:36,909 --> 00:39:39,059 intelligence was for energy. 712 00:39:39,059 --> 00:39:43,005 And Trump said, he said this on the campaign trail, but we seem 713 00:39:43,005 --> 00:39:44,940 to be the only ones who notice. 714 00:39:44,940 --> 00:39:49,418 he said, AI is an electricity-eating monster. 715 00:39:49,418 --> 00:39:51,759 And that was a compliment. 716 00:39:51,759 --> 00:39:57,039 He was so excited about the fact that he had found a new 717 00:39:57,039 --> 00:40:00,998 market for gas and for coal. 718 00:40:00,998 --> 00:40:05,219 And so these industries have now fused, 719 00:40:05,219 --> 00:40:07,777 and all of the blue-green companies 720 00:40:07,777 --> 00:40:10,599 that used to give out Earth prizes and such 721 00:40:10,599 --> 00:40:15,018 are powering their massive data centers 722 00:40:15,018 --> 00:40:20,378 with methane spewing rigged together turbines 723 00:40:20,378 --> 00:40:25,978 and poisoning entire cities like Memphis and Tucson, Arizona. 724 00:40:25,978 --> 00:40:29,239 And it's a really dramatic shift. 725 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,139 And their political shift, we believe, 726 00:40:32,139 --> 00:40:36,018 follows the material shift and the material change. 727 00:40:36,018 --> 00:40:39,739 And if we want to know why they did it, like, look at the fact 728 00:40:39,739 --> 00:40:43,695 that they're now saying their companies are going to be worth 729 00:40:43,695 --> 00:40:46,717 more than or at least the same as the entire U.S. 730 00:40:46,717 --> 00:40:47,338 economy. 731 00:40:48,797 --> 00:40:50,559 They're doing it for the trillions. 732 00:40:51,958 --> 00:40:55,010 Yeah, well, I feel like there's a lot of complexity here for all 733 00:40:55,010 --> 00:40:58,018 of us living in one of the big tech capitals of the world. 734 00:40:59,259 --> 00:41:03,583 And I have a lot of chance to reflect on this as the mayor, 735 00:41:03,583 --> 00:41:08,047 kind of thinking about how AI and other technologies that are 736 00:41:08,047 --> 00:41:12,300 being developed really do have the potential to improve human 737 00:41:12,300 --> 00:41:14,539 but they also come with huge risks, 738 00:41:14,539 --> 00:41:17,699 and there are real questions about responsible use, 739 00:41:17,699 --> 00:41:20,739 especially in a profit-driven economy. 740 00:41:20,739 --> 00:41:24,338 And all of us in Seattle, and especially maybe me as mayor, 741 00:41:24,338 --> 00:41:27,518 are in this complicated position because also our workforce, 742 00:41:27,518 --> 00:41:31,945 our residents, and our city budget depend on 743 00:41:31,945 --> 00:41:34,099 high-wage tech jobs. 744 00:41:34,099 --> 00:41:35,639 And so I've done a lot of thinking about, you know, 745 00:41:35,639 --> 00:41:37,989 what is my role as mayor and all of our roles 746 00:41:37,989 --> 00:41:41,119 in growing an economy that's as life-affirming 747 00:41:41,119 --> 00:41:42,079 as possible. 748 00:41:42,079 --> 00:41:43,579 And it's a challenge. 749 00:41:43,579 --> 00:41:47,710 Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there are potential positive 750 00:41:47,710 --> 00:41:49,297 uses of this technology. 751 00:41:49,297 --> 00:41:51,898 I mean, I, you know, my father is a medicinal chemist 752 00:41:51,898 --> 00:41:55,159 and he uses, you know, he's interested in, 753 00:41:55,159 --> 00:41:58,818 he uses AlphaFold and is doing drug design. 754 00:41:58,818 --> 00:42:02,239 And what I see with my father, who is a scientist, 755 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,318 you know, it's like, but he could only be that 756 00:42:05,318 --> 00:42:06,958 because there was a public university system 757 00:42:06,958 --> 00:42:11,083 And there was scientific funding that supported the 758 00:42:11,083 --> 00:42:13,518 human aspect of that research. 759 00:42:13,518 --> 00:42:16,619 And that's what we need to protect, right? 760 00:42:16,619 --> 00:42:20,864 Like wouldn't it be great if we were using AI to help run 761 00:42:20,864 --> 00:42:24,554 fast free buses that were green that could get us around 762 00:42:24,554 --> 00:42:26,777 efficiently instead of using them to power 763 00:42:26,777 --> 00:42:28,898 alienating self-driving cars, right? 764 00:42:28,898 --> 00:42:33,039 that are owned by Elon Musk or Google. 765 00:42:33,039 --> 00:42:37,338 And so, no, I just think, you know, 766 00:42:37,338 --> 00:42:39,079 I've been writing about tech for a long time 767 00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:41,398 and we just have to resist reifying 768 00:42:41,398 --> 00:42:44,797 or separating the technology and talking about AI as if it's 769 00:42:44,797 --> 00:42:46,179 something up here, you know? 770 00:42:46,179 --> 00:42:48,559 And we need to get to the political economy. 771 00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:49,579 Who owns it? 772 00:42:49,579 --> 00:42:52,418 Are we making investments in the things humans need 773 00:42:52,418 --> 00:42:54,759 so that the tech, if we use it, serves us? 774 00:43:01,958 --> 00:43:06,891 And to be clear, what is devouring the energy is, 775 00:43:06,891 --> 00:43:09,358 I mean, it's two things. 776 00:43:09,358 --> 00:43:11,099 One, it's agentic AI. 777 00:43:11,099 --> 00:43:18,659 It's not, I mean, that is what is most energy intensive by far. 778 00:43:18,659 --> 00:43:21,099 And that's also what's replacing the jobs 779 00:43:21,099 --> 00:43:23,938 of the people building the AI first, right? 780 00:43:23,938 --> 00:43:26,864 Like, you know, the people who, well, I mean, the 781 00:43:26,864 --> 00:43:30,539 anthropic workers are like, Claude is running the show now. 782 00:43:30,539 --> 00:43:33,659 Like, we're just, like, we're racing to keep up. 783 00:43:33,659 --> 00:43:36,088 And this is part of the reason why we're starting 784 00:43:36,088 --> 00:43:38,326 to see people leave and say this is very, they're 785 00:43:38,326 --> 00:43:40,675 very uncomfortable with it because they know 786 00:43:40,675 --> 00:43:43,103 more than anyone that they can't keep up 787 00:43:43,103 --> 00:43:46,523 with what they're building and that all of this 788 00:43:46,523 --> 00:43:50,119 decision-making is being outsourced. 789 00:43:50,119 --> 00:43:54,568 So it's the agentic AI, and it's also the model of 790 00:43:54,568 --> 00:43:59,335 having these five titans racing each other for the 791 00:43:59,335 --> 00:44:02,039 prize of owning everything, the way they see it. 792 00:44:03,099 --> 00:44:10,318 And so they're building duplicative data centers, 793 00:44:10,318 --> 00:44:14,739 which they all admit are, like, it's a bubble, right? 794 00:44:14,739 --> 00:44:19,639 They don't admit that, I mean, some of them believe 795 00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:22,838 that at the end of it, there will be, you know, 796 00:44:22,838 --> 00:44:26,679 a couple of companies that genuinely own everything, 797 00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:29,699 but nobody believes that all of this infrastructure 798 00:44:29,699 --> 00:44:34,739 will be used and all of this energy will be necessary. 799 00:44:34,739 --> 00:44:38,679 So there's going to be stranded assets one way or another. 800 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,518 Yeah, interesting. 801 00:44:41,518 --> 00:44:46,378 Well, let's go on to the third group, the ethno-nationalists. 802 00:44:46,378 --> 00:44:48,898 And this strikes me as maybe the group that has 803 00:44:48,898 --> 00:44:52,117 the clearest parallel with the more 1930s 804 00:44:52,117 --> 00:44:54,199 version of fascism. 805 00:44:55,818 --> 00:45:00,159 And one of the things that struck me in the video, 806 00:45:00,159 --> 00:45:02,777 Brexit features in the video. 807 00:45:02,777 --> 00:45:07,458 And just kind of a contrast between this go-round and 1930s, 808 00:45:07,458 --> 00:45:09,889 the idea that you can kind of bunker up economically 809 00:45:09,889 --> 00:45:10,739 in a single nation 810 00:45:12,498 --> 00:45:14,614 seems a lot less believable today than it 811 00:45:14,614 --> 00:45:15,858 was in the 1930s, right? 812 00:45:15,858 --> 00:45:17,376 They tried it with Brexit, and people thought it 813 00:45:17,376 --> 00:45:19,614 was going to be great, and they got clapped back 814 00:45:19,614 --> 00:45:23,398 real fast by the realities of global financial integration. 815 00:45:23,398 --> 00:45:26,699 And to give this a little bit of a local angle, 816 00:45:26,699 --> 00:45:28,958 I think about Trump's immigration policies. 817 00:45:28,958 --> 00:45:32,159 And, you know, here in King County, 818 00:45:32,159 --> 00:45:34,219 our population growth, our economic growth, 819 00:45:34,219 --> 00:45:37,277 is really driven by international immigration. 820 00:45:37,277 --> 00:45:39,358 Like, if you look at the numbers, it is astounding. 821 00:45:39,358 --> 00:45:40,777 Like, I think in the last five years, 822 00:45:40,777 --> 00:45:42,898 we would have a net outflow of population 823 00:45:42,898 --> 00:45:45,197 if you didn't count really significant 824 00:45:45,197 --> 00:45:46,938 international immigration. 825 00:45:46,938 --> 00:45:48,878 And so then when the Trump administration 826 00:45:48,878 --> 00:45:51,958 starts aggressively restricting H-1B visas, 827 00:45:51,958 --> 00:45:54,059 then that threatens that kind of pipeline. 828 00:45:54,059 --> 00:45:57,938 And so it's this very self-defeating kind of posture. 829 00:45:57,938 --> 00:46:02,998 So anyway, tell us about the ethno-nationalists. 830 00:46:02,998 --> 00:46:04,099 Oh, yes. 831 00:46:04,099 --> 00:46:05,958 I mean, this is the part... 832 00:46:05,958 --> 00:46:08,898 So, yeah, so end times, fascism is not a monolith. 833 00:46:08,898 --> 00:46:11,920 You know, fascism is always a weird alliance. 834 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:13,639 In fact, the word fascism means bundle, 835 00:46:13,639 --> 00:46:15,099 going back to its Latin roots. 836 00:46:15,099 --> 00:46:17,938 And, I mean, politics is always coalition building. 837 00:46:17,938 --> 00:46:22,215 So this is the prong that has the biggest 838 00:46:22,215 --> 00:46:24,418 claim on a mass base. 839 00:46:25,659 --> 00:46:28,918 It describes some portion, not all of the MAGA 840 00:46:28,918 --> 00:46:32,692 base, but people who are convinced that immigration 841 00:46:32,692 --> 00:46:34,579 is an existential threat. 842 00:46:34,579 --> 00:46:37,378 So we see this language not just in the United 843 00:46:37,378 --> 00:46:38,739 States but in Europe. 844 00:46:38,739 --> 00:46:41,574 The talk of civilizational erasure, right? 845 00:46:41,574 --> 00:46:43,719 We talk of the great replacement, 846 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,027 which is the idea that globalists and liberals 847 00:46:47,027 --> 00:46:50,978 are purposefully importing immigrants to destroy 848 00:46:50,978 --> 00:46:54,775 the supposedly, you know, native white Christian 849 00:46:54,775 --> 00:46:58,324 culture. And so this is, you know, we describe it 850 00:46:58,324 --> 00:46:59,744 in the film, right? 851 00:46:59,744 --> 00:47:01,440 This is about taking that 852 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:04,250 anger and that discontent people feel and directing 853 00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:06,407 it downwards towards the vulnerable, 854 00:47:06,407 --> 00:47:07,918 towards the scapegoats. 855 00:47:07,918 --> 00:47:12,373 And so in the book, we talk about how Trump was able to 856 00:47:12,373 --> 00:47:15,925 do this and how other leaders across Europe are 857 00:47:15,925 --> 00:47:17,559 engaging in this playbook. 858 00:47:19,079 --> 00:47:23,643 But again, they're not replicas of the fascists of yore, because 859 00:47:23,643 --> 00:47:26,818 one thing we talk about is how little they're 860 00:47:26,818 --> 00:47:28,838 actually offering their base. 861 00:47:28,838 --> 00:47:31,199 You know, there's, you know, Naomi mentioned, 862 00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:34,599 like at least, you know, Mussolini would say, 863 00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:37,059 hey, you know, there's public works programs. 864 00:47:37,059 --> 00:47:40,259 People, you know, there were millions of reduced cost fares 865 00:47:40,259 --> 00:47:42,657 so that working class people were able to go to the coast 866 00:47:42,659 --> 00:47:43,838 for the first time. 867 00:47:43,838 --> 00:47:45,918 Like you got something. 868 00:47:45,918 --> 00:47:48,259 It was a, you know, we're not nostalgic 869 00:47:48,259 --> 00:47:51,699 for ye old fascism at all. 870 00:47:51,699 --> 00:47:56,797 But there was a quid pro quo of some kind for the in-group. 871 00:47:56,797 --> 00:48:01,559 And today we see this much more overt futurelessness. 872 00:48:01,559 --> 00:48:04,539 Trump did run on affordability. 873 00:48:04,539 --> 00:48:10,302 He said after the election, "I ran on the border 874 00:48:10,302 --> 00:48:13,259 and I ran on groceries." 875 00:48:13,259 --> 00:48:15,858 And he really hasn't delivered. 876 00:48:15,858 --> 00:48:17,418 I mean, costs are going up. 877 00:48:18,699 --> 00:48:21,518 It's getting harder and harder to make ends meet. 878 00:48:21,518 --> 00:48:26,349 And what they have delivered on is they've delivered to 879 00:48:26,349 --> 00:48:30,338 their rich cronies and allowed corruption to go wild. 880 00:48:30,338 --> 00:48:33,597 And they've tried to give the base basically 881 00:48:33,597 --> 00:48:37,119 nothing but sadistic memes and the opportunity 882 00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:39,474 to have, you know, to feel like at least you're not 883 00:48:39,474 --> 00:48:41,659 the people that we are detaining and rounding 884 00:48:41,659 --> 00:48:43,239 up and trying to humiliate. 885 00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:45,318 And that isn't very much. 886 00:48:45,318 --> 00:48:47,699 I mean, at one point in the book, we say something 887 00:48:47,699 --> 00:48:50,139 like, you know, yeah, if Trump advances America, 888 00:48:50,139 --> 00:48:53,097 you'll never own a home, but you can own the libs. 889 00:48:56,039 --> 00:48:58,295 And it turns out, but lots of people want 890 00:48:58,295 --> 00:48:59,458 to own a home, right? 891 00:48:59,458 --> 00:49:03,119 Like people want to have their lives be material improved. 892 00:49:03,119 --> 00:49:05,483 And so there is a real, ultimately where we 893 00:49:05,483 --> 00:49:08,119 land is like, there's a real opportunity here. 894 00:49:08,119 --> 00:49:09,844 I say this as someone who organizes with the 895 00:49:09,844 --> 00:49:11,619 debt collective, which is about organizing 896 00:49:11,619 --> 00:49:14,126 with people who are in debt and going to that 897 00:49:14,126 --> 00:49:15,378 economic pain point. 898 00:49:15,378 --> 00:49:19,614 There is so much potential in this moment to build a coalition 899 00:49:19,614 --> 00:49:22,684 that takes some critical portion of those folks and 900 00:49:22,684 --> 00:49:25,818 redirects the rage back to where it should go, which is towards 901 00:49:25,818 --> 00:49:26,777 the oligarchs. 902 00:49:26,777 --> 00:49:29,818 I mean, we saw a recent election in Germany, right? 903 00:49:29,818 --> 00:49:34,385 Alternative for Deutschland, the AFD, who are in the video, 904 00:49:34,385 --> 00:49:38,130 won a major election in a region that was just very 905 00:49:38,130 --> 00:49:42,972 economically distressed, where there was major problems with 906 00:49:42,972 --> 00:49:47,539 affordability and a lack of upward mobility, a lack of jobs. 907 00:49:47,539 --> 00:49:50,099 And AFD basically said, it's the immigrants. 908 00:49:50,099 --> 00:49:52,717 But what's wild is that it's also the region with the 909 00:49:52,717 --> 00:49:54,179 lowest rate of immigration. 910 00:49:55,398 --> 00:49:58,427 So you will not, like, you know, you actually 911 00:49:58,427 --> 00:50:01,619 cannot make people's, you won't make people's 912 00:50:01,619 --> 00:50:04,362 lives better by being meaner to the immigrants who are barely 913 00:50:04,362 --> 00:50:05,599 present in that community. 914 00:50:05,599 --> 00:50:08,532 We have to make, we have to address some of the economic 915 00:50:08,532 --> 00:50:12,820 challenges that are driving this and the ecological drivers 916 00:50:12,820 --> 00:50:16,565 as well, because we really see and argue in 917 00:50:16,565 --> 00:50:20,840 the book that so much of this is driven by climate 918 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,829 instability and climate change. 919 00:50:23,829 --> 00:50:26,818 So we use the example of Hurricane 920 00:50:26,818 --> 00:50:31,097 Helene in North Carolina right before the election of 2024. 921 00:50:31,097 --> 00:50:33,577 A tropical storm hits Appalachia, 922 00:50:34,619 --> 00:50:38,405 and the Democrats are pretty much silent about climate change 923 00:50:38,405 --> 00:50:41,760 even after this horrific event and Donald Trump and Elon 924 00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,405 Musk go down to the south and they say oh forget 925 00:50:44,405 --> 00:50:46,873 about climate change you know what the problem 926 00:50:46,873 --> 00:50:49,244 is the great replacement it's FEMA has no money to 927 00:50:49,244 --> 00:50:52,121 help you rebuild because the Democrats gave it all to the 928 00:50:52,121 --> 00:50:55,318 immigrants because they want their votes and they were able 929 00:50:55,318 --> 00:50:59,030 to fill that vacuum and pivot and speak to that 930 00:50:59,030 --> 00:51:02,838 insecurity and all of the chaos and fear people 931 00:51:02,838 --> 00:51:06,483 felt. And again, this is a twisted form of climate 932 00:51:06,483 --> 00:51:10,219 adaptation. And it's also an opportunity because 933 00:51:11,418 --> 00:51:13,835 there's a big vacuum that we can speak into and 934 00:51:13,835 --> 00:51:15,297 actually speak some truth. 935 00:51:15,297 --> 00:51:16,539 Yeah, absolutely. 936 00:51:16,539 --> 00:51:18,945 And I think about that vacuum a lot and 937 00:51:18,945 --> 00:51:23,056 bringing it back to this kind of crisis of legitimacy that opens 938 00:51:23,056 --> 00:51:24,920 the way for these movements. 939 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,561 What we need to do is we need to have that credible, 940 00:51:28,561 --> 00:51:32,559 hopeful, inclusive vision for what the future can be. 941 00:51:32,559 --> 00:51:35,219 And we have to trust that people will go for that 942 00:51:35,219 --> 00:51:37,199 and then we have to actually deliver it. 943 00:51:37,199 --> 00:51:39,797 And maybe not everyone, but enough of them. 944 00:51:39,797 --> 00:51:43,818 And we saw Mamdani win 10% of Trump voters back 945 00:51:43,818 --> 00:51:46,179 by saying, hey, how about we actually end the wars? 946 00:51:46,179 --> 00:51:47,679 How about we actually freeze the rent? 947 00:51:47,679 --> 00:51:50,318 How about we actually try to do free and fast buses? 948 00:51:50,318 --> 00:51:53,079 And some people were like, that sounds pretty good, actually. 949 00:51:53,079 --> 00:51:56,179 Yeah, no, and I think I might, yeah. 950 00:52:02,938 --> 00:52:06,577 I'm a little bit biased on this, but I really do think 951 00:52:06,577 --> 00:52:09,878 that cities are a great scale for this project. 952 00:52:09,878 --> 00:52:15,458 Just thinking of cities as humanity's greatest invention. 953 00:52:15,458 --> 00:52:20,259 This place that is so human scale and where we can exercise 954 00:52:20,259 --> 00:52:25,358 democracy at this level where you can actually see the effect 955 00:52:25,358 --> 00:52:30,358 of your actions and where we can create something together. 956 00:52:30,358 --> 00:52:34,219 A phrase that I use a lot as mayor is this is your city. 957 00:52:34,219 --> 00:52:37,030 And to me, that has a few different meanings that 958 00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:38,577 I think are relevant here. 959 00:52:38,579 --> 00:52:41,018 One is this kind of message of belonging, right? 960 00:52:41,018 --> 00:52:43,659 Like whoever you are, wherever you come from, 961 00:52:43,659 --> 00:52:44,965 whatever your income is, whatever your 962 00:52:44,965 --> 00:52:45,717 background is, right? 963 00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:46,599 You belong here. 964 00:52:46,599 --> 00:52:48,818 You deserve to be able to build a life here, 965 00:52:48,818 --> 00:52:50,239 to have a dignified existence. 966 00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:54,038 But then it's also this message of participation, right? 967 00:52:54,039 --> 00:52:55,777 This is your city. 968 00:52:55,777 --> 00:52:57,858 This is your city hall, right? 969 00:52:57,858 --> 00:52:58,599 This is a democracy. 970 00:52:59,858 --> 00:53:03,690 Everyone should have the power, the ability to influence 971 00:53:03,690 --> 00:53:07,059 those decisions that shape their lives. 972 00:53:07,059 --> 00:53:09,179 And then finally it's this message of responsibility, 973 00:53:09,179 --> 00:53:10,918 of collective responsibility, right? 974 00:53:10,918 --> 00:53:14,237 Of you own something, you have a responsibility to it, 975 00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,318 we have a shared responsibility to each other 976 00:53:16,318 --> 00:53:18,139 and to the city that we share. 977 00:53:18,139 --> 00:53:21,277 And so to me that's like really is the antithesis 978 00:53:21,277 --> 00:53:22,717 of end times fascism. 979 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,777 It's about what we can create together 980 00:53:25,777 --> 00:53:28,619 in a way that is inclusive and that's life affirming. 981 00:53:28,619 --> 00:53:31,079 And I feel like cities are a place 982 00:53:31,079 --> 00:53:33,699 where we can really do that. 983 00:53:33,699 --> 00:53:38,659 And that's what I think the victories in New York 984 00:53:38,659 --> 00:53:43,077 and Providence and Seattle and soon to be Washington, D.C. 985 00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:44,056 and perhaps L.A. 986 00:53:44,056 --> 00:53:46,219 kind of all reflect that kind of vibe. 987 00:53:54,478 --> 00:53:59,344 Yeah I mean just to reinforce that it's very clear 988 00:53:59,344 --> 00:54:03,099 that fascists hate cities right Right. 989 00:54:03,099 --> 00:54:09,018 And the vilification of cities 990 00:54:09,018 --> 00:54:13,179 and particularly since COVID. 991 00:54:13,179 --> 00:54:17,498 Right um and at least it really seems to have 992 00:54:17,498 --> 00:54:22,297 accelerated in part because that was a time when 993 00:54:22,297 --> 00:54:25,795 we were isolated and sort of we saw a lot 994 00:54:25,795 --> 00:54:29,480 of the city through the screen you know so there 995 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,398 was a lot of media that was created 996 00:54:32,398 --> 00:54:34,378 that sort of monsterized the city 997 00:54:34,378 --> 00:54:38,518 and monsterized unhoused people and drug users 998 00:54:38,518 --> 00:54:45,358 and just like flooding the internet with fear, 999 00:54:45,358 --> 00:54:47,259 like fear of the city. 1000 00:54:47,259 --> 00:54:51,559 And it is, it's fear of, it's racist fears, 1001 00:54:51,559 --> 00:54:54,273 it's fear of difference, but the very fact that 1002 00:54:54,273 --> 00:54:56,157 cities are possible, right? 1003 00:54:56,159 --> 00:55:00,070 And that diversities are possible, that people can live 1004 00:55:00,070 --> 00:55:03,898 together, be curious about each other, be interested, 1005 00:55:03,898 --> 00:55:07,726 realize that our lives are enriched precisely because 1006 00:55:07,726 --> 00:55:11,639 of our differences is the antithesis of fascism, right? 1007 00:55:11,639 --> 00:55:14,878 Which wants sameness, which wants uniformity, which 1008 00:55:14,878 --> 00:55:16,318 wants that discipline. 1009 00:55:16,318 --> 00:55:20,079 And so when people in cities say, we love it here, you know, 1010 00:55:21,478 --> 00:55:28,679 and run on these very positive visions as you did 1011 00:55:28,679 --> 00:55:33,539 and as the other politicians who you mentioned did, 1012 00:55:33,539 --> 00:55:35,478 where there's sort of love letters to the city 1013 00:55:35,478 --> 00:55:37,619 and what makes them different and what makes them special, 1014 00:55:37,619 --> 00:55:40,797 it reminds all of us that there's a reason 1015 00:55:40,797 --> 00:55:43,619 why we live where we live, right? 1016 00:55:43,619 --> 00:55:45,737 You know, and some smaller communities are also, 1017 00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:50,579 precisely because there's some massive data center 1018 00:55:50,579 --> 00:55:53,898 that's moved in without their consent, right, 1019 00:55:55,277 --> 00:55:58,157 have found their love for their rural communities 1020 00:55:58,159 --> 00:56:00,351 and their small towns and just talk to 1021 00:56:00,351 --> 00:56:02,958 their neighbors more about what makes it special. 1022 00:56:02,958 --> 00:56:06,347 I'm like, you know, it can be that they like hearing 1023 00:56:06,347 --> 00:56:09,373 the crickets at night and they don't want to hear 1024 00:56:09,373 --> 00:56:10,878 the roar of a data center. 1025 00:56:10,878 --> 00:56:14,726 I mean, every here is different, and there are different 1026 00:56:14,726 --> 00:56:16,916 things to love, but I do believe cities are 1027 00:56:16,916 --> 00:56:18,398 inherently anti-fascist. 1028 00:56:24,338 --> 00:56:26,958 Yeah, there's another aspect of what I feel like the 1029 00:56:26,958 --> 00:56:29,945 opportunity is right now for really the left, and I think 1030 00:56:29,945 --> 00:56:31,719 it's interesting to think about 1031 00:56:32,878 --> 00:56:35,367 kind of the contrast between what you're 1032 00:56:35,367 --> 00:56:39,324 calling end times fascism and the kind of, the right or 1033 00:56:39,324 --> 00:56:43,952 kind of conservative movement, you know, 10, 20, 30 years 1034 00:56:43,952 --> 00:56:46,929 ago, and at that time, it had the kind of like adult 1035 00:56:46,929 --> 00:56:48,297 in the room persona, right? 1036 00:56:48,297 --> 00:56:51,699 There was a lot of talk of fiscal responsibility, 1037 00:56:51,699 --> 00:56:55,958 and often that was code for slashing social services 1038 00:56:55,958 --> 00:56:58,739 and cutting government to the bone 1039 00:56:58,739 --> 00:57:00,759 by people who didn't actually want government to work 1040 00:57:00,759 --> 00:57:04,699 but it had this kind of sense of we're the responsible ones 1041 00:57:04,699 --> 00:57:07,838 and with Trump that's just totally fallen apart 1042 00:57:07,838 --> 00:57:10,777 is the kind of reductio ad absurdum of that ideology 1043 00:57:10,777 --> 00:57:14,378 where you have this extreme fiscal irresponsibility 1044 00:57:14,378 --> 00:57:16,498 that is paired with just like wholesale destruction 1045 00:57:16,498 --> 00:57:18,619 of core government functions. 1046 00:57:18,619 --> 00:57:23,599 And I think that really opens up the space for the left 1047 00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:27,911 to be the adult in the room and kind of recapture some 1048 00:57:27,911 --> 00:57:31,465 of that language and maturity in a way that can allow 1049 00:57:31,465 --> 00:57:34,197 us to put together governing coalitions 1050 00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:35,577 that can really be effective. 1051 00:57:42,418 --> 00:57:44,599 Yeah, I mean, you're making me think, though. 1052 00:57:44,599 --> 00:57:46,458 I mean, they are trying with their messages. 1053 00:57:46,458 --> 00:57:49,297 So, for example, the viral right-winger Nick Shirley, 1054 00:57:49,297 --> 00:57:53,179 who went on his fraud-hunting spree in Minnesota, 1055 00:57:53,179 --> 00:57:55,739 is trying to play with those old tropes 1056 00:57:55,739 --> 00:58:00,818 that waste and fraud is basically social spending 1057 00:58:00,818 --> 00:58:04,697 depending on diverse pluralistic citizenry. 1058 00:58:04,699 --> 00:58:08,599 And I do think it is incumbent on us to challenge that 1059 00:58:08,599 --> 00:58:10,958 and be like governments exist to spend money on people 1060 00:58:10,958 --> 00:58:13,438 and what we as human beings need to live. 1061 00:58:13,438 --> 00:58:19,659 But also to try to build the incredible egregious 1062 00:58:19,659 --> 00:58:22,777 corruption into our movements. 1063 00:58:22,777 --> 00:58:25,677 I mean, I'm just thinking of the recent election in Hungary 1064 00:58:25,679 --> 00:58:27,539 where they did defeat Viktor Orban. 1065 00:58:31,898 --> 00:58:34,702 And not with a progressive, but with a conservative 1066 00:58:34,702 --> 00:58:36,918 who at least, but who built an incredible 1067 00:58:38,099 --> 00:58:40,672 constituency by highlighting the intense 1068 00:58:40,672 --> 00:58:42,318 corruption of that regime. 1069 00:58:42,318 --> 00:58:44,666 And so I think there are some lessons there too 1070 00:58:44,666 --> 00:58:45,838 at the national scale. 1071 00:58:45,838 --> 00:58:48,382 Yeah, if it's just like not getting inured to it and being 1072 00:58:48,382 --> 00:58:50,233 like, "Oh yeah, you know, they're taking more 1073 00:58:50,233 --> 00:58:51,958 billions, they've got more crypto or whatever." 1074 00:58:51,958 --> 00:58:55,117 We should be really indignant about it. 1075 00:58:55,119 --> 00:58:56,099 Yeah, absolutely. 1076 00:58:59,679 --> 00:59:02,498 The other thing that's very clear 1077 00:59:02,498 --> 00:59:05,876 is that you never know what is going to be the 1078 00:59:05,876 --> 00:59:07,659 last straw for people. 1079 00:59:07,659 --> 00:59:08,998 It's very unpredictable. 1080 00:59:10,259 --> 00:59:12,838 And we see this around the world. 1081 00:59:12,838 --> 00:59:17,360 And, you know, Albania, Albanians have been living in 1082 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,938 a very corrupt country for a long time, but it took Ivanka 1083 00:59:20,938 --> 00:59:25,014 going for a swim, you know, and climbing and 1084 00:59:25,014 --> 00:59:27,277 discovering an island. 1085 00:59:27,277 --> 00:59:30,840 And, you know, they've been in the streets for months, 1086 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,297 and it's really a revolution, and it's ultimately a revolution 1087 00:59:34,297 --> 00:59:35,458 about corruption, right? 1088 00:59:35,458 --> 00:59:39,659 It's about the fact that you would sell, you know, 1089 00:59:39,659 --> 00:59:47,099 a precious natural wonder, which everybody has access to, 1090 00:59:48,378 --> 00:59:51,878 and turn it into this elite enclave. 1091 00:59:51,878 --> 00:59:56,353 But, I mean, people, I've seen, have you seen this footage from 1092 00:59:56,353 --> 00:59:58,056 Spain in recent, from Madrid? 1093 00:59:58,059 --> 01:00:00,579 I mean, it was one eviction. 1094 01:00:00,579 --> 01:00:04,699 It was finally just one eviction too many of an elderly woman, 1095 01:00:04,699 --> 01:00:08,458 and people have been flooding the streets. 1096 01:00:08,458 --> 01:00:10,998 So this is one of the things we talk a lot about, 1097 01:00:10,998 --> 01:00:15,838 is that politics is kind of mysterious, right? 1098 01:00:15,838 --> 01:00:19,099 I mean, Astra was a key organizer of Occupy, 1099 01:00:19,099 --> 01:00:22,579 and no one predicted that. 1100 01:00:22,579 --> 01:00:23,858 You know, one minute... 1101 01:00:24,998 --> 01:00:28,978 Seattle, like that also, I mean, there was organizing, 1102 01:00:28,978 --> 01:00:32,454 there's always organizing, but you never know when suddenly 1103 01:00:32,454 --> 01:00:33,998 it's going to be everyone. 1104 01:00:33,998 --> 01:00:37,056 It's always a surprise, right? 1105 01:00:37,059 --> 01:00:37,958 Yes, yes. 1106 01:00:37,958 --> 01:00:40,858 But we also know, we don't know when or what will kick it off, 1107 01:00:40,858 --> 01:00:43,559 but I know it will happen, right? 1108 01:00:43,559 --> 01:00:45,458 We know that these movement moments happen, 1109 01:00:45,458 --> 01:00:48,380 and I think we can do a better job of preparing for them 1110 01:00:48,380 --> 01:00:51,213 in the sense of building infrastructure that 1111 01:00:51,213 --> 01:00:52,259 can hold people. 1112 01:00:52,259 --> 01:00:54,268 You know, 30 million people were in the streets 1113 01:00:54,268 --> 01:00:55,297 for Black Lives Matter. 1114 01:00:55,297 --> 01:00:58,478 And some found political homes, but a lot of people didn't. 1115 01:00:58,478 --> 01:01:00,688 A lot of people, you know, got involved in electoral 1116 01:01:00,688 --> 01:01:01,818 politics, which is great. 1117 01:01:01,818 --> 01:01:04,226 But we need extra electoral places that 1118 01:01:04,226 --> 01:01:05,539 we can organize with. 1119 01:01:05,539 --> 01:01:09,898 We need to be in tenants unions and the unions and, you know, 1120 01:01:09,898 --> 01:01:12,099 racial justice orgs and the debt collective. 1121 01:01:12,099 --> 01:01:16,188 And let's build those containers now because something is 1122 01:01:16,188 --> 01:01:17,858 going to happen, right? 1123 01:01:17,858 --> 01:01:20,532 It could be the AI bubble bursting and it could be another 1124 01:01:20,532 --> 01:01:23,427 Occupy moment and let's have our organizations and 1125 01:01:23,427 --> 01:01:25,199 our demands ready, right? 1126 01:01:25,199 --> 01:01:30,059 Let's prepare for the thing we can't know in advance. 1127 01:01:30,059 --> 01:01:30,777 Yeah, absolutely. 1128 01:01:30,777 --> 01:01:33,112 I mean, that was really like the whole motivation right 1129 01:01:33,112 --> 01:01:34,179 when Occupy was going on. 1130 01:01:34,179 --> 01:01:37,054 And that's when the organization that I co-founded in 2011, 1131 01:01:37,054 --> 01:01:39,759 we were just getting started, the Transit Riders Union. 1132 01:01:39,759 --> 01:01:42,195 And the whole theory behind that was, yeah, how do we 1133 01:01:42,195 --> 01:01:43,838 actually create infrastructure? 1134 01:01:43,838 --> 01:01:46,545 How do we create an organization that people can join and be 1135 01:01:46,545 --> 01:01:49,085 members of and where we can be building community at the 1136 01:01:49,085 --> 01:01:51,514 same time as we're fighting on that political sphere 1137 01:01:51,514 --> 01:01:54,166 for, you know, public transit and renter protections and 1138 01:01:54,166 --> 01:01:56,818 higher minimum wages and all the things that people need? 1139 01:01:56,818 --> 01:02:00,181 It's such a great example, you know, because another 1140 01:02:00,181 --> 01:02:03,701 movement that had millions of people in the streets and 1141 01:02:03,701 --> 01:02:06,300 then everyone's like, well, where is it? 1142 01:02:06,300 --> 01:02:08,059 It's the climate movement. 1143 01:02:08,059 --> 01:02:11,041 The climate movement was huge if we think about 1144 01:02:11,041 --> 01:02:14,559 the mass strikes in 2019 and right before the pandemic. 1145 01:02:14,559 --> 01:02:20,438 But it's very strange to go from a movement of that scale 1146 01:02:20,438 --> 01:02:23,139 to people looking around going, is there a climate movement? 1147 01:02:23,139 --> 01:02:25,699 Or is there like a bunch of NGOs? 1148 01:02:25,699 --> 01:02:30,358 And the examples, like what you've been a part of building, 1149 01:02:30,358 --> 01:02:36,239 which married cost of living and quality of life, 1150 01:02:36,239 --> 01:02:38,677 like what is more important than transit? 1151 01:02:38,679 --> 01:02:42,289 I mean, so many people lose so much time where they're 1152 01:02:42,289 --> 01:02:46,231 not with their family, where they're not with their loved 1153 01:02:46,231 --> 01:02:48,119 ones to bad public transit. 1154 01:02:48,119 --> 01:02:50,797 And it's a kind of wage theft, right? 1155 01:02:50,797 --> 01:02:53,971 And I think it's been a real failure of the climate 1156 01:02:53,971 --> 01:02:57,297 movement that I've been a part of for a long time that 1157 01:02:57,297 --> 01:03:00,780 we didn't just champion it and make that a core climate 1158 01:03:00,780 --> 01:03:02,559 policy from the beginning. 1159 01:03:02,559 --> 01:03:06,398 So, yeah, what we're seeing is that it's popular. 1160 01:03:06,398 --> 01:03:09,867 If, you know, in France, they had the Yellow Vest 1161 01:03:09,867 --> 01:03:11,318 Movement that rose up. 1162 01:03:11,318 --> 01:03:15,679 And because climate policies in Europe 1163 01:03:15,679 --> 01:03:19,219 did not pay enough attention to not passing the cost of 1164 01:03:19,219 --> 01:03:22,369 climate policy onto consumers, they set themselves 1165 01:03:22,369 --> 01:03:23,119 up for backlash. 1166 01:03:23,119 --> 01:03:24,652 And their slogan was, you care about the 1167 01:03:24,652 --> 01:03:26,688 end of the world, we care about the end 1168 01:03:26,688 --> 01:03:28,039 of the month, right? 1169 01:03:28,039 --> 01:03:32,230 And our job has to be to say, you don't have to choose. 1170 01:03:32,230 --> 01:03:34,233 We care about both, right? 1171 01:03:34,233 --> 01:03:37,418 And to develop policies that make it clear 1172 01:03:37,418 --> 01:03:39,505 that that's a false choice. 1173 01:03:39,505 --> 01:03:39,958 Yeah. 1174 01:03:45,759 --> 01:03:48,351 Absolutely. So I think we're getting pretty close 1175 01:03:48,351 --> 01:03:49,831 to audience questions here. 1176 01:03:49,831 --> 01:03:52,818 So I'm just going to ask you one more thing here. 1177 01:03:52,818 --> 01:03:56,998 So you describe the end-time fascists as traitors, 1178 01:03:56,998 --> 01:03:59,358 not to a particular country or group, 1179 01:03:59,358 --> 01:04:02,418 but to humanity and to shared life on this planet. 1180 01:04:04,018 --> 01:04:06,686 And as a counter to that, the final part of your 1181 01:04:06,686 --> 01:04:08,579 book is called Let's Stay. 1182 01:04:08,579 --> 01:04:10,438 So I wonder if you could speak a little bit 1183 01:04:10,438 --> 01:04:14,498 about the idea of hereness that you introduced in that section. 1184 01:04:14,498 --> 01:04:16,199 Where does that come from and what does it mean? 1185 01:04:17,297 --> 01:04:19,978 Yeah, we debated a little bit. 1186 01:04:19,978 --> 01:04:21,918 We're like, should we call them traitors? 1187 01:04:21,918 --> 01:04:23,679 You know, we don't really use that language. 1188 01:04:25,358 --> 01:04:29,554 But we think it is appropriate here that they're traitors 1189 01:04:29,554 --> 01:04:31,039 to creation, right? 1190 01:04:31,039 --> 01:04:34,898 If you're imagining paradise is somewhere else, right? 1191 01:04:34,898 --> 01:04:38,521 It's not, you're the billionaire who's threatening 1192 01:04:38,521 --> 01:04:41,898 to leave California because of a 5% one-time tax. 1193 01:04:43,159 --> 01:04:46,902 Or you're Musk or Jeff Bezos who's like, humanity's 1194 01:04:46,902 --> 01:04:50,038 probably doomed, so our future is in space. 1195 01:04:50,039 --> 01:04:55,103 I mean, Bezos' whole vision with his space company is like, you 1196 01:04:55,103 --> 01:04:57,539 know, our future is out there. 1197 01:04:57,539 --> 01:04:59,755 There will be trillions of people in space, and 1198 01:04:59,755 --> 01:05:01,858 then the earth will be zoned light industry. 1199 01:05:04,056 --> 01:05:06,724 Or if it's this vision of heaven, these are 1200 01:05:06,724 --> 01:05:08,018 all visions of exit. 1201 01:05:08,018 --> 01:05:11,733 Or even if you think you better get that luxury bunker 1202 01:05:11,733 --> 01:05:13,759 while everything goes down. 1203 01:05:13,759 --> 01:05:17,177 So the antithesis of that is saying, no, we're going 1204 01:05:17,177 --> 01:05:20,117 to stay here, here, and try to make it better. 1205 01:05:20,119 --> 01:05:22,297 instead of banking on the end times. 1206 01:05:22,297 --> 01:05:24,398 It's an idea, the idea of hereness is an idea 1207 01:05:24,398 --> 01:05:28,639 we take from the Jewish Labor Bund. 1208 01:05:28,639 --> 01:05:30,858 People might have read Molly Crabapple's great book, 1209 01:05:30,858 --> 01:05:32,159 Here Where We Live Is Our Country. 1210 01:05:34,259 --> 01:05:38,418 And this idea emerged at the, you know, 1211 01:05:38,418 --> 01:05:40,257 when, in the late 1800s, yeah. 1212 01:05:42,018 --> 01:05:46,119 Partly as a reaction to the idea of Zionism, right? 1213 01:05:46,119 --> 01:05:48,878 That actually paradise was an ethnostate, right? 1214 01:05:48,878 --> 01:05:51,878 Where you would be with your people alone. 1215 01:05:51,878 --> 01:05:54,889 And the members of the Bund said, no, here where 1216 01:05:54,889 --> 01:05:56,318 we live is our country. 1217 01:05:56,318 --> 01:06:00,728 We believe that our security and our safety can best be had 1218 01:06:00,728 --> 01:06:04,786 in multi-faith, multi-racial solidarity, solidarity 1219 01:06:04,786 --> 01:06:06,139 with our neighbors. 1220 01:06:06,139 --> 01:06:08,878 And Molly tells a very tragic story. 1221 01:06:08,878 --> 01:06:11,943 In our position is just because it didn't end well doesn't mean 1222 01:06:11,943 --> 01:06:13,123 they were wrong, right? 1223 01:06:13,123 --> 01:06:15,181 That we also see that the ethnostate 1224 01:06:15,181 --> 01:06:16,726 isn't the way we want to go. 1225 01:06:16,726 --> 01:06:19,635 So hereness today, though, takes on, I think, a global 1226 01:06:19,635 --> 01:06:22,818 dimension, again, because people are talking about leaving the 1227 01:06:22,818 --> 01:06:24,231 planet behind. 1228 01:06:24,231 --> 01:06:28,581 And it resonates for us because, you know, it can 1229 01:06:28,581 --> 01:06:32,650 seem very simple, but we're in a moment where the 1230 01:06:32,650 --> 01:06:34,717 battle lines are pretty clear. 1231 01:06:34,717 --> 01:06:37,577 It's like life versus the robots, you know, 1232 01:06:37,577 --> 01:06:40,170 and do we want a future or to use a muskism, do 1233 01:06:40,170 --> 01:06:42,980 we want a future where we're multi-planetary, 1234 01:06:42,980 --> 01:06:45,108 but you know, it's just like trillionaires and 1235 01:06:45,108 --> 01:06:47,239 their robots, or do we want to live on a thriving 1236 01:06:47,239 --> 01:06:48,853 multi-species planet? 1237 01:06:48,853 --> 01:06:51,277 You know, do we want to live in a place 1238 01:06:51,277 --> 01:06:54,838 where not just humans flourish, but animals and plants. 1239 01:06:54,838 --> 01:06:58,838 And so we think here is really, it's really great. 1240 01:06:58,838 --> 01:07:01,338 And the vast majority of people like it here 1241 01:07:01,338 --> 01:07:02,538 and want to stay. 1242 01:07:02,538 --> 01:07:04,539 So let's stay and make it better. 1243 01:07:04,539 --> 01:07:06,777 And it's that simple right now. 1244 01:07:18,159 --> 01:07:19,318 Yeah, you're here. 1245 01:07:22,556 --> 01:07:24,581 I can ask more questions or are we doing 1246 01:07:24,581 --> 01:07:26,759 audience questions a good chant for us actually 1247 01:07:26,759 --> 01:07:29,556 our new slogan is let's stay we wrote it in all of your books 1248 01:07:30,797 --> 01:07:34,757 thank you so much I'm your house manager tonight 1249 01:07:34,759 --> 01:07:37,398 we have time for three or four questions 1250 01:07:37,398 --> 01:07:40,338 please use the QR code to submit questions virtually 1251 01:07:40,338 --> 01:07:42,556 or come up here to ask your questions aloud 1252 01:07:42,556 --> 01:07:43,438 so everyone can hear you 1253 01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:46,858 please remember to keep your questions concise 1254 01:07:46,858 --> 01:07:48,418 and in the form of a question. 1255 01:07:51,978 --> 01:07:55,518 Okay, I'm going to start with a question from the app. 1256 01:07:56,777 --> 01:08:00,119 What does the progressive left least understand 1257 01:08:00,119 --> 01:08:02,998 about the appeal of the contemporary right? 1258 01:08:05,318 --> 01:08:06,556 That's a great question. 1259 01:08:06,556 --> 01:08:07,378 It is. 1260 01:08:11,239 --> 01:08:16,877 I mean, there are pleasures to be had on the far right. 1261 01:08:16,877 --> 01:08:20,595 I mean, I feel a little mixed saying that because you 1262 01:08:20,595 --> 01:08:23,779 have to understand how fucked our algorithms were 1263 01:08:23,779 --> 01:08:24,738 writing this book. 1264 01:08:24,738 --> 01:08:31,238 Because we took a deep dive into the far right feeds. 1265 01:08:31,238 --> 01:08:33,778 But there is a gleefulness, right? 1266 01:08:33,778 --> 01:08:39,118 There is a reveling in a sense of superiority. 1267 01:08:40,917 --> 01:08:47,698 And this is the kind of feeling that the MAGA right 1268 01:08:47,698 --> 01:08:49,917 and some of the manosphere conjures. 1269 01:08:51,957 --> 01:08:57,099 I think for some people it's less of a toxic version of that, 1270 01:08:57,099 --> 01:08:59,694 but there is a real sense of belonging, right, in 1271 01:08:59,694 --> 01:09:02,417 some of the evangelical churches, and I think that 1272 01:09:02,417 --> 01:09:06,828 belonging is really key, because I think sometimes on the left, 1273 01:09:06,828 --> 01:09:10,229 we prioritize, well, sometimes organizers will talk about 1274 01:09:10,229 --> 01:09:11,979 belief and belonging, right, like we want 1275 01:09:11,979 --> 01:09:14,345 people to have the right beliefs before we actually 1276 01:09:14,345 --> 01:09:16,430 provide them with that emotional sense of 1277 01:09:16,430 --> 01:09:17,738 belonging, and the right, 1278 01:09:19,519 --> 01:09:22,854 But yeah, I think part of the emotional offer is the sense of 1279 01:09:22,854 --> 01:09:26,229 being part of something, even if the ties are pretty loose 1280 01:09:26,229 --> 01:09:27,760 and they're just online. 1281 01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:33,118 So one thing I took away from that deep dive as an organizer 1282 01:09:33,118 --> 01:09:37,243 is like, how do we give people a sense of community 1283 01:09:37,243 --> 01:09:40,733 and belonging and then maybe through our actions 1284 01:09:40,733 --> 01:09:42,837 get to the questions of belief? 1285 01:09:42,837 --> 01:09:46,738 Like, people are not always as ideologically coherent in terms 1286 01:09:46,738 --> 01:09:50,197 of the political base as we sometimes imagine them to be. 1287 01:09:54,359 --> 01:09:56,211 Thank you. 1288 01:09:56,211 --> 01:09:59,296 Yes to all of that. 1289 01:09:59,296 --> 01:10:01,019 Here's my question. 1290 01:10:01,019 --> 01:10:05,997 A lot of this discussion today has been really Euro-centered. 1291 01:10:05,997 --> 01:10:10,639 and I would, you know, Euro-centered. 1292 01:10:10,639 --> 01:10:13,759 And what about the global south? 1293 01:10:13,759 --> 01:10:17,256 I mean, there's imperialism that shut down the global south 1294 01:10:17,259 --> 01:10:21,399 as they were trying to organize after World War II. 1295 01:10:21,399 --> 01:10:25,618 So I think there's something missing from this conversation 1296 01:10:25,618 --> 01:10:30,198 of how that has evolved to where we are now, 1297 01:10:30,198 --> 01:10:32,778 and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on that. 1298 01:10:34,859 --> 01:10:38,756 Yes, it's a great point. 1299 01:10:38,759 --> 01:10:42,439 I mean, the book we do talk about 1300 01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:45,658 how internationally networked this movement is 1301 01:10:45,658 --> 01:10:51,537 and it is not only North America and Europe. 1302 01:10:53,319 --> 01:10:56,837 This surge of these ethno-nationalism 1303 01:10:56,837 --> 01:11:01,225 them is very clear in Modi's India, including 1304 01:11:01,225 --> 01:11:06,078 these sort of pleasures and rewards and community 1305 01:11:06,078 --> 01:11:10,158 that Hindu nationalism provides 1306 01:11:12,595 --> 01:11:21,939 in extreme forms of the sort of mass violence 1307 01:11:21,939 --> 01:11:24,738 and sexual violence as well. 1308 01:11:25,796 --> 01:11:28,837 I mean, this is sort of classic fascism, the RSS. 1309 01:11:31,698 --> 01:11:39,488 And Latin America right now, El Salvador, Ecuador, 1310 01:11:39,488 --> 01:11:47,457 like the leaders in these countries are very Trumpy. 1311 01:11:47,457 --> 01:11:50,850 Some of them have been helpfully installed by 1312 01:11:50,850 --> 01:11:54,600 Trump. If we look at what is happening in Colombia, 1313 01:11:54,600 --> 01:11:55,944 Honduras, the U.S. 1314 01:11:55,944 --> 01:11:57,712 has been very, very, very 1315 01:11:57,712 --> 01:11:59,475 active in Latin America. 1316 01:11:59,475 --> 01:12:03,024 I don't think we've paid nearly enough attention 1317 01:12:03,024 --> 01:12:03,555 to U.S. 1318 01:12:03,555 --> 01:12:06,841 interference in the Argentinian elections 1319 01:12:06,841 --> 01:12:08,618 of just coming right in. 1320 01:12:08,618 --> 01:12:12,072 And we know that Trump just offered people $5,000 if 1321 01:12:12,072 --> 01:12:13,756 they elect Republicans. 1322 01:12:13,759 --> 01:12:19,019 But he literally did that in both Argentina and Honduras, 1323 01:12:19,019 --> 01:12:23,395 went in and said, if you give Milei a win in this election, 1324 01:12:23,395 --> 01:12:26,738 he wasn't running, but it was like a midterm election. 1325 01:12:26,738 --> 01:12:32,158 And it was going against Milei's party. 1326 01:12:32,158 --> 01:12:34,844 and he was about to lose power and the Trump 1327 01:12:34,844 --> 01:12:38,519 administration came in and said, if you vote right, 1328 01:12:38,519 --> 01:12:40,796 you'll get this loan and this bailout 1329 01:12:40,796 --> 01:12:41,979 and if you don't, you won't. 1330 01:12:41,979 --> 01:12:45,578 And it was so extreme that in Argentina, 1331 01:12:45,578 --> 01:12:49,377 stores were posting two different prices, 1332 01:12:49,377 --> 01:12:53,055 like if Milei wins and if he doesn't, right? 1333 01:12:53,059 --> 01:12:55,979 And they swayed the election. 1334 01:12:55,979 --> 01:12:56,957 Honduras, same thing. 1335 01:12:56,957 --> 01:13:01,399 They put aid on the table. 1336 01:13:01,399 --> 01:13:05,438 And so this, you know, this is not a picture 1337 01:13:05,438 --> 01:13:07,399 of the entire globe. 1338 01:13:07,399 --> 01:13:09,697 I mean, there are still countries that are pushing 1339 01:13:09,697 --> 01:13:12,377 back, that are independent, that are going another route. 1340 01:13:13,917 --> 01:13:19,148 But this is one of the ways in which fascism is 1341 01:13:19,148 --> 01:13:24,800 different today than it was in the 20th century. 1342 01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:30,671 And in part because of the history of imperialism 1343 01:13:30,671 --> 01:13:32,819 and colonialism. 1344 01:13:32,819 --> 01:13:36,189 And specifically in the book, we talk about the 1345 01:13:36,189 --> 01:13:37,917 rise of Pentecostalism 1346 01:13:40,059 --> 01:13:44,658 in the wreckage of the war on liberation theology, right? 1347 01:13:44,658 --> 01:13:49,296 And on a form of theology that promised to, you know, 1348 01:13:49,296 --> 01:13:51,917 champion land reform and workers' rights 1349 01:13:51,917 --> 01:13:55,796 and married social and economic justice with theology 1350 01:13:55,796 --> 01:13:57,997 and was just brutally extinguished 1351 01:13:57,997 --> 01:14:01,439 in a series of US-backed dirty wars. 1352 01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:05,917 And now comes a religion that promises salvation 1353 01:14:05,917 --> 01:14:07,398 only in the next world, right? 1354 01:14:08,676 --> 01:14:09,719 And Bolsonaro. 1355 01:14:09,719 --> 01:14:11,439 Oh, I didn't even mention Bolsonaro. 1356 01:14:12,658 --> 01:14:13,019 Hmm. 1357 01:14:16,259 --> 01:14:17,636 I loved all that about Latin America. 1358 01:14:17,636 --> 01:14:19,877 I studied that in college. 1359 01:14:19,877 --> 01:14:22,377 But I'm going to bring this back to local issues. 1360 01:14:22,377 --> 01:14:24,295 I am part of the DSA Ecosocialism Working 1361 01:14:24,295 --> 01:14:26,435 Group and one of the leaders of the Washington 1362 01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:27,899 AI Resistance. 1363 01:14:27,899 --> 01:14:30,377 We pushed for a data center moratorium in Seattle. 1364 01:14:30,377 --> 01:14:32,412 Seattle is now the largest city in the country with 1365 01:14:32,412 --> 01:14:33,479 a data center moratorium. 1366 01:14:33,479 --> 01:14:35,296 Thank you, Mayor Wilson. 1367 01:14:36,979 --> 01:14:39,939 And we will be pushing for one in Washington State. 1368 01:14:39,939 --> 01:14:43,679 You can find more information about that downstairs and a 1369 01:14:43,679 --> 01:14:47,805 statewide call to action for a statewide moratorium on October 1370 01:14:47,805 --> 01:14:49,676 4th downstairs on the table. 1371 01:14:49,676 --> 01:14:52,296 So Amazon employees, you also talked about Amazon 1372 01:14:52,296 --> 01:14:53,979 employees for climate justice. 1373 01:14:53,979 --> 01:14:56,407 They spoke out in support of the data center 1374 01:14:56,407 --> 01:14:59,305 moratorium in our own city and are being retaliated 1375 01:14:59,305 --> 01:15:00,858 against by their employer. 1376 01:15:00,859 --> 01:15:04,511 Obviously, this is a challenge to organizing in a city 1377 01:15:04,511 --> 01:15:06,296 with a tech employee base. 1378 01:15:06,296 --> 01:15:08,203 What would you advise Mayor Wilson or other 1379 01:15:08,203 --> 01:15:10,216 leaders in local, city, or county government 1380 01:15:10,219 --> 01:15:13,362 to do to rein in retaliation from big tech companies as 1381 01:15:13,362 --> 01:15:15,037 we are doing our organizing? 1382 01:15:15,037 --> 01:15:15,337 Thank you. 1383 01:15:22,158 --> 01:15:25,037 I want to know what you think 1384 01:15:26,997 --> 01:15:30,037 I should have - asked me that question in advance 1385 01:15:30,037 --> 01:15:33,020 so I could research what tools the mayor has at her disposal 1386 01:15:33,020 --> 01:15:34,698 because I don't know much about municipal government 1387 01:15:34,698 --> 01:15:35,595 I'm just glad this question isn't to me 1388 01:15:36,658 --> 01:15:37,238 Go for it. 1389 01:15:37,238 --> 01:15:37,719 Go for it. 1390 01:15:39,859 --> 01:15:42,859 I said I'm glad this question was not for me. 1391 01:15:47,719 --> 01:15:51,462 I mean, I do want to say that the work that the 1392 01:15:51,462 --> 01:15:55,519 tech workers are doing in these tech companies 1393 01:15:55,519 --> 01:15:57,118 is so critical as well. 1394 01:15:57,118 --> 01:15:59,359 and it's not just these Amazon workers 1395 01:15:59,359 --> 01:16:00,779 who are being retaliated against. 1396 01:16:00,779 --> 01:16:02,898 I heard recently about Microsoft workers 1397 01:16:02,899 --> 01:16:07,179 who have been protesting the use of Microsoft technologies 1398 01:16:07,179 --> 01:16:09,818 in Gaza who are also being retaliated against. 1399 01:16:11,997 --> 01:16:15,439 So yeah, I am incredibly supportive 1400 01:16:15,439 --> 01:16:17,618 of all the tools being used to help them. 1401 01:16:17,618 --> 01:16:21,917 I'm not exactly sure what tools there are, 1402 01:16:21,917 --> 01:16:25,363 But I also think that the rest of us who aren't in elected 1403 01:16:25,363 --> 01:16:29,029 office should recognize how critical these fights are and 1404 01:16:29,029 --> 01:16:32,475 try to play more of a role supporting these tech workers 1405 01:16:32,475 --> 01:16:36,367 who, for now, hold very critical labor roles in some of the most 1406 01:16:36,367 --> 01:16:38,238 powerful companies on earth. 1407 01:16:38,238 --> 01:16:41,305 And we really need them to feel supported and able to 1408 01:16:41,305 --> 01:16:44,518 take risks and to blow the whistle as much as possible. 1409 01:16:44,518 --> 01:16:46,345 Yeah. I think we're... 1410 01:16:46,345 --> 01:16:49,037 I would just add, I mean, there are 1411 01:16:49,037 --> 01:16:53,368 laws on the books that are supposed to protect workers 1412 01:16:53,368 --> 01:16:56,157 from retaliation for organizing. 1413 01:16:56,158 --> 01:17:00,917 And they are rarely enforced to the full force of the law. 1414 01:17:00,917 --> 01:17:03,238 So I would definitely say they should be enforced. 1415 01:17:04,259 --> 01:17:09,904 But we should also just be aware that even though there's 1416 01:17:09,904 --> 01:17:13,877 a fair bit of cynicism about some of the whistleblowers 1417 01:17:13,877 --> 01:17:16,398 that have come forward to raise their own alarms 1418 01:17:16,399 --> 01:17:19,987 about what is happening with the 1419 01:17:19,987 --> 01:17:22,417 threats posed from AI. 1420 01:17:25,478 --> 01:17:29,295 One thing that we can say with absolute certainty is there is 1421 01:17:29,295 --> 01:17:32,719 absolute rage at these workers among venture capitalists. 1422 01:17:33,759 --> 01:17:35,398 We listen to their podcast. 1423 01:17:35,399 --> 01:17:36,296 We listen to their podcast. 1424 01:17:36,296 --> 01:17:38,259 As they are freaking out. 1425 01:17:38,259 --> 01:17:43,095 And it's very clear that the next move 1426 01:17:43,095 --> 01:17:46,917 is really to get all of these workers under NDAs 1427 01:17:46,917 --> 01:17:52,417 and to eliminate the watchdogs because they threaten the IPOs. 1428 01:17:52,417 --> 01:17:55,198 And they don't want 25-year-olds going on television 1429 01:17:55,198 --> 01:17:57,595 and saying, I'm afraid of what we're building. 1430 01:17:58,595 --> 01:18:03,559 So I think people are being too cynical, frankly. 1431 01:18:03,559 --> 01:18:06,460 I actually think these workers present a real threat and 1432 01:18:06,460 --> 01:18:07,818 they need to be protected. 1433 01:18:16,978 --> 01:18:19,238 I'm actually really happy that I'm the last question 1434 01:18:19,238 --> 01:18:21,399 because I do think this is a good way to close it out. 1435 01:18:21,399 --> 01:18:26,069 But I was wondering what rituals or activities 1436 01:18:26,069 --> 01:18:30,743 each of you engage in to maintain hope and not be 1437 01:18:30,743 --> 01:18:34,729 bogged down by depression, especially after steeping 1438 01:18:34,729 --> 01:18:37,246 yourself in all of this for researching the book, so that 1439 01:18:37,246 --> 01:18:38,475 you can continue the fight. 1440 01:18:44,618 --> 01:18:50,399 it's so good to be close to home I live in Vancouver 1441 01:18:50,399 --> 01:18:53,917 and spend a lot of time outside of Vancouver 1442 01:18:53,917 --> 01:18:57,457 in different beautiful parts of this ecosystem 1443 01:18:57,457 --> 01:19:02,698 and I feel very connected to these beautiful 1444 01:19:04,198 --> 01:19:07,377 Coast Salish lands and waters, and I've often 1445 01:19:07,377 --> 01:19:11,680 felt that I wouldn't be able to do the type of writing that I 1446 01:19:11,680 --> 01:19:16,546 do without, you know, that reciprocal relationship with 1447 01:19:16,546 --> 01:19:18,877 the natural world that is so 1448 01:19:20,296 --> 01:19:24,376 healing and such an antidote to so much of what I write, and 1449 01:19:24,376 --> 01:19:27,715 it was such a joy to be able to write in person with 1450 01:19:27,715 --> 01:19:29,595 Astra on the Sunshine Coast 1451 01:19:30,898 --> 01:19:32,898 for parts of this project. 1452 01:19:32,898 --> 01:19:37,618 Astra came out and got really into the beavers 1453 01:19:38,898 --> 01:19:43,176 and the seals and the sea lions. 1454 01:19:43,176 --> 01:19:45,639 Didn't manage to wrestle up any orcas for her, though. 1455 01:19:45,639 --> 01:19:47,555 I tried, I tried, I tried. 1456 01:19:47,555 --> 01:19:50,198 We're going to get them next time. 1457 01:19:50,198 --> 01:19:52,259 But certainly, you know, when I think about 1458 01:19:52,259 --> 01:19:55,810 like using a phrase like traitors to creation you 1459 01:19:55,810 --> 01:19:59,537 know it's this these lands and animals 1460 01:19:59,537 --> 01:20:03,448 you know we're so fortunate to live so close to wildness right 1461 01:20:03,448 --> 01:20:07,242 I mean it is a city but these cities aren't like so many 1462 01:20:07,242 --> 01:20:10,875 cities because there is so much we have access 1463 01:20:10,875 --> 01:20:13,877 to such wildness and, you know, it's a big 1464 01:20:13,877 --> 01:20:16,975 part of the reason why many people choose to live here. 1465 01:20:16,978 --> 01:20:21,453 But there's also a duty in living here on these lands 1466 01:20:21,453 --> 01:20:26,139 that have been protected by First Nations for so long. 1467 01:20:26,139 --> 01:20:27,738 And it's a duty to protect. 1468 01:20:27,738 --> 01:20:30,917 And that's really the duty, you know, of all humans. 1469 01:20:32,118 --> 01:20:36,359 We've got to protect and enhance life, right? 1470 01:20:36,359 --> 01:20:38,680 And that's why we say that people who are 1471 01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,899 willing to let it all burn are traitors to creation. 1472 01:20:43,518 --> 01:20:47,796 I would be remiss if I didn't thank all the wonderful people 1473 01:20:47,796 --> 01:20:49,519 who made this night possible. 1474 01:20:50,537 --> 01:20:55,555 I love launching books with Town Hall, 1475 01:20:55,555 --> 01:20:59,087 an incredible team, and Elliott Bay is such 1476 01:20:59,087 --> 01:21:00,518 a special bookstore. 1477 01:21:02,978 --> 01:21:09,555 We've had DSA tabling at most of our events 1478 01:21:09,555 --> 01:21:13,667 and that's also really special to be able to funnel people 1479 01:21:13,667 --> 01:21:16,158 directly into that organizing. 1480 01:21:16,158 --> 01:21:18,555 I don't think anywhere that we've had an event 1481 01:21:18,555 --> 01:21:22,978 there's also been a forager group that's been tabling. 1482 01:21:22,978 --> 01:21:27,697 But I just would like to say, you know, like in France 1483 01:21:27,697 --> 01:21:32,194 they may have champagne socialists, but you have 1484 01:21:32,194 --> 01:21:37,131 Chanterelles socialists, which is, I feel like for me 1485 01:21:37,131 --> 01:21:42,618 foraging for Chanterelles is very healing and satisfying. 1486 01:21:43,938 --> 01:21:45,859 And yeah, all that good stuff. 1487 01:21:45,859 --> 01:21:46,519 Astra, over to you. 1488 01:21:48,118 --> 01:21:49,118 I just had to make that joke. 1489 01:21:50,136 --> 01:21:52,238 I'm down with it. 1490 01:21:53,578 --> 01:21:54,818 Can we have champagne too, though? 1491 01:21:56,759 --> 01:22:01,055 So I take that question to heart. 1492 01:22:01,055 --> 01:22:03,055 This is a really scary moment. 1493 01:22:03,055 --> 01:22:05,358 This book was hard to write. 1494 01:22:05,358 --> 01:22:08,654 This world is hard to live in and it's hard to face and it 1495 01:22:08,654 --> 01:22:10,555 can feel really overwhelming. 1496 01:22:10,555 --> 01:22:14,742 certainly there were moments, I mean, in, you know, we talked 1497 01:22:14,742 --> 01:22:18,337 about how, we've talked together about how even in our past 1498 01:22:18,337 --> 01:22:20,997 writing projects, which have taken on really heavy 1499 01:22:20,997 --> 01:22:23,832 topics, there was almost a sense of distance, right, 1500 01:22:23,832 --> 01:22:27,238 whereas this felt very much like we were in it, you know, when, 1501 01:22:27,238 --> 01:22:29,680 when they're talking about the war on the left, we feel like 1502 01:22:29,680 --> 01:22:31,877 that's us, that's our friends, That's the people we 1503 01:22:31,877 --> 01:22:32,779 know and care about. 1504 01:22:34,658 --> 01:22:39,337 And so this was, you know, it's a difficult time. 1505 01:22:39,337 --> 01:22:40,877 It was a difficult project. 1506 01:22:40,877 --> 01:22:44,725 But how I, I mean, how I really think the way to 1507 01:22:44,725 --> 01:22:49,301 find hope or solace is to organize with other people. 1508 01:22:49,301 --> 01:22:50,555 I really believe that. 1509 01:22:52,719 --> 01:22:56,279 You know, and no political home is perfect. 1510 01:22:56,279 --> 01:22:57,073 every group. 1511 01:22:57,073 --> 01:22:58,587 I mean, I'm an introvert. 1512 01:22:58,587 --> 01:23:00,680 You know, it's hard to sometimes be 1513 01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:03,872 around people and people can be challenging, but there's 1514 01:23:03,872 --> 01:23:07,037 nothing like finding collective power and just being around 1515 01:23:07,037 --> 01:23:09,345 people who are trying to make this world better. 1516 01:23:09,345 --> 01:23:11,595 I really think that that is the best antidote to 1517 01:23:11,595 --> 01:23:14,185 despair and that organizing is a kind of alchemy that 1518 01:23:14,185 --> 01:23:16,837 can turn those feelings of overwhelming 1519 01:23:16,837 --> 01:23:20,143 isolation into power, which is what we 1520 01:23:20,143 --> 01:23:22,055 need to change this. 1521 01:23:29,658 --> 01:23:33,118 Yeah, and so that is the, I mean, that's the, 1522 01:23:33,118 --> 01:23:35,059 writing books is part of what we need to do, 1523 01:23:35,059 --> 01:23:37,078 and it's important in analyzing things 1524 01:23:37,078 --> 01:23:40,390 and looking at the darkness, but ultimately, you 1525 01:23:40,390 --> 01:23:41,837 know, join something. 1526 01:23:41,837 --> 01:23:45,046 Join DSA today, join the forager group, you know, join an 1527 01:23:45,046 --> 01:23:48,527 electoral campaign, but join something, because this is too 1528 01:23:48,527 --> 01:23:50,095 much for us to take on alone. 1529 01:23:50,095 --> 01:23:51,756 We really have to take it on together. 1530 01:24:00,738 --> 01:24:03,319 Well, thank you so much. 1531 01:24:03,319 --> 01:24:05,457 And I totally agree with that. 1532 01:24:05,457 --> 01:24:05,898 Yeah, yeah. 1533 01:24:06,978 --> 01:24:08,136 Thank you, Mayor. 1534 01:24:08,136 --> 01:24:09,219 That's how I've survived. 1535 01:24:09,219 --> 01:24:10,037 Thank you, Seattle.