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All right, welcome
everyone, and thanks for

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doing the housekeeping.

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So I think we're going
to cover a lot of ground

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in this conversation,
and we will make sure

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to have time for audience
questions at the end.

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But let's start with
meeting our panelists.

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So first up, Melissa
Davis in the center.

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Melissa is the Deputy Opinion
Editor and a member of the

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Editorial Board at the Seattle
Times, an institution that

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for better or for worse has
helped define Seattle's

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political conversation for
generations, I think for

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better. She spent years
inside the newsroom including

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in editing and editorial
leadership and today helped

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shapes the opinion pages
of the region's largest

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newspaper. So let's give
a round of applause.

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Thanks for coming.

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And next David Hyde
here on my left.

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David has spent two decades at

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KUOW where he became an
award-winning political

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reporter covering the
people, politics, and power

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structures shaping this region.

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But in 2024, David did
something that says quite

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a lot about the
state of journalism.

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He left public radio to pursue

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independent journalism
and podcasting full-time.

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Today he's behind Seattle Nice

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and Blue City Blues, two
podcasts that take on

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politics, governance, and
sometimes the absurd realities

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of living in progressive cities.

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So let's give it up for David.

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All right, and finally, last
but not least, Tim Keck,

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right over there on the left.

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Tim has spent much of his
career doing something that

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most people in media only
talk about, disrupting it.

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In 1988, he co-founded The
Onion, which we all know,

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and which went on to become
one of the most recognizable

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names in American satire.

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Then in 1991, he came to
Seattle and founded The

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Stranger, a publication that
didn't just cover Seattle's

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politics and culture, it
became part of the political

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and cultural establishment
that we know as Seattle.

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He also helped build the
Portland Mercury and remains

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involved in independent
media through Noisy Creek.

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So please welcome David,
Melissa, and Tim.

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And my name is Chirag, I'm
on the organizing committee,

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and I work for Congressman
Smith in my day job.

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So thanks for coming, everyone.

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All right, so I'm going
to start with Melissa

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as the first question.

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And I want this to be a
conversation, so feel free

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to ask each other questions
and ask some leading

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questions if needed.

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So we're excited to have
all of you guys here.

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But about a year ago, Melissa,
you wrote a story when

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Jimmy Kimmel was suspended.

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You drew a parallel between
Kimmel, Stephen Colbert,

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and the Smothers Brothers,
whose television show was

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canceled in the late
1960s after years of

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conflict with CBS, and
you wrote about the

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dangers of allowing a small
number of powerful people

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to decide which opinions
the public gets to hear.

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You know, Jeff Bezos owns
the Washington Post,

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Murdoch's News Corp owns
the Wall Street Journal,

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Musk owns X, David
Ellison's Skydance just

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bought CBS and CNN, and
the Nexstar's acquisition

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of Tegna here in Seattle
raises questions around

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local TV ownership.

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So as media becomes increasingly
concentrated, ownership,

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how much influence do owners
have, how much should they have,

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and what is the relationship
between editors and owners?

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Which part of that?

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Wherever you want to start.

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Do you want me to?

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I mean, I'll start
at the bottom.

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And you're an owner, so you know
things too, but about this.

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In an ideal world, obviously
owners have a say as far

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as, of course, finances.

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It's business.

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But I think owners should
keep their nose out of it.

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If they bought a media company
whose job is to broadcast

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news, shape opinion, whatever,
they need to know that going

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in, but out, I would say.

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Fair enough.

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If I owned media,
that's what I would do.

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Unfortunately, a lot of
the people who seem to

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amass vast amounts of media

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have ulterior motives that
don't always work in the public

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good or their employees good.

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I mean, look what
happened at WAPO.

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When your whole opinion
department is oppressed

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from saying what they
think, that's their job,

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the opinion department walks
out, you have a problem.

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Same in LA Times.

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The owner, his wife, and
his daughter, I believe,

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had a great deal of
influence in the newsroom,

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and that's not fair to readers.

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That's not transparent.

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And Tim, you guys just
hired a new editor-in-chief

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at The Stranger, so how
did that all go down?

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You want to tell us about it?

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So I'm an owner of the new
company that owns The Stranger

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and the Portland Mercury
and the Chicago Reader

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and Memphis Flyer and
probably more papers soon.

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So I don't make that decision,
but I did sit in on some

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of those interviews.

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And Eli rules.

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I think having Eli as the
editor of The Stranger

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is going to be amazing.

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His ability to do
long-form work,

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his lots of experience,
obviously won a Pulitzer Prize.

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But he's also, I remember my
desk was not far from his

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when he was working with
the paper and listening

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to him work the phones,

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especially when he was
bringing down that Washington

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State Supreme Court justice,
watching him work the phones or

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listening to him was just a joy.

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He's really smart.

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He's really- and now I was just
talking to Sandeep about this.

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I feel like he's more
driven than ever,

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and I'm really excited
to see what he's going

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to do with the paper.

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It is exciting, that's for sure.

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I want to pivot us to the
economics of journalism,

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the business of it.

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So I actually had a lot of
fun doing some research

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on some of these folks.

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They're kind of
behind the scenes.

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So I learned a lot about
what you guys have said.

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So I'm going to bring
some quotes from there.

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So in 2020, so we'll see if
they stay on the test of time.

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I'm a changed man.

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Hey, fair enough.

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And I know I've
hurt some people.

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I'm sorry, go ahead.

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The goal is not to hurt you.

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So it's all good.

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In a 2020 KUOW interview,
you discussed how

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devastating the pandemic was
for the stranger's advertising

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model, particularly its
dependence on restaurants,

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nightlife and entertainment.

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And in 2024, after more than
three decades, you know, the

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stranger changed ownership.

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But journalism has to be paid
for somehow, whether that's

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advertising subscriptions
like the Seattle Times,

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donors or wealthy owners.

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So is there actually a
sustainable model for

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fiercely independent
local journalism anymore?

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What does that look like?

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Yeah, that's a really
tough one, and I think

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it's a possible one.

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First of all, I think
there's a demand for it.

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You know, people, everybody
would like to have

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active, alive, energetic,
competitive journalists

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in their city, right?

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And so I think there's a need,
obviously a need for it.

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And so how do you
put it all together?

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And what I was trying to do
back in the day and what

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Noisy Creek is trying to do
in multiple cities is combine

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events, ticketing, traditional
advertising, podcasting, and

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membership in this crazy hydra
to be able to make it and put

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it all together to make it work.

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And so I think that,
you know, like you were

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saying about Bezos, right?

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You know, one way to do it is
just be the richest person,

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one of the richest people who
have ever, ever lived, right?

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Then you can do it.

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It's just it's not as much as
the bar bill at the club, right?

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And so you can totally do that.

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But if you're going to actually
be connected to a city, I

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think you have to be connected
to the events, the ticketing,

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and all those kind of things.

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Fair enough.

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What does it look like
as a podcaster, David?

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You know, ad supported?

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Must be interesting.

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Yeah, well, okay.

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So I'll start with NPR.

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You know, I mean,
the donor model.

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I mean, NPR is in
real trouble, right?

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Because their audience is aging.

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When I was 50, I was the
average age of an NPR listener.

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And now that I'm 61, I
think I'm still the average

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age of an NPR listener.

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kids are not listening
at all when I started

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I think it was like 40
percent of college students

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listen to NPR and now
it's something like two

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percent so and they're
just not developing

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the radio habit it used
to be people would like

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listen to pop music and
then kind of get into NPR

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sort of age into NPR if you were
if you had a college degree

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essentially 75 percent of their
audience always had college

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degrees. And so, you know,
how do they stay alive?

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And what they're
thinking they have to

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do is chase digital and get
into podcasting, but there's

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no money in that really
so far for them.

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So I don't know what's
going to happen to NPR.

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I mean, I think it'll continue.

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Maybe there's some more Grateful
Dead CDs you can sell at

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and that sort of thing.

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But I think ultimately
it's problematic.

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I think, though, the disruption
that's been happening

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presents some opportunities
for podcasters

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and more independent media,
but I think all that stuff

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has to be super lean.

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We are so lean that it's a
labor of love at this point.

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But the revenue
streams are Patreon

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or paid advertising or
spots, that sort of thing.

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And I also think events.

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That's what I wanted to ask
Tim a little bit about was how

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much events played a role in
the Strangers' success and

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what you think the potential
are for live events to help

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grow independent podcasts
and independent outlets.

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Yeah, well, for podcasting,
right, that's a part

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and parcel of it.

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Having live events, it's
a charge to have people

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come and you get connected.

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I think it's really important.

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And also, as you
know, advertising

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revenue is not great.

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I actually have a real quick
question about NPR going

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into the podcasting world.

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They're limited by their
advertising, right?

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Their advertising model isn't
straightforward, right?

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They have to, right?

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I mean, they're selling spots.

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It's roughly 50%.

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On terrestrial radio, it's
about 50% of the revenue is

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spots and 50% is donations
or something like that.

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Yeah, so it's significant.

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And, you know, online there's
also banner ads, but I

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think that's, you know,
what is it, 1% or 2% maybe?

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And I think also podcast ads
has to be a fraction of their

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terrestrial radio revenue.

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Yeah, but, yeah,
events help, right?

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And having big events help.

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You know, lots of little events.

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Too small here.

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Lots of little events don't
make any money at all, and

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it's just so much staff.

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You know, we found we were doing
tons of events in the 90s, and

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we just never made any money.

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Because they were too
small and we didn't

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charge most of the
time and it was just a

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tax on the staff.

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And you have to kind of get into
the event business, I think.

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Well, that's true.

247
00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,798
We've, at the Times, have
held a lot of events.

248
00:10:27,798 --> 00:10:30,899
For instance, Pictures of the
Year, that's super popular.

249
00:10:30,899 --> 00:10:33,220
We sell out for free.

250
00:10:33,220 --> 00:10:36,620
The Auditorium at the Library,
we have lots of people calling,

251
00:10:36,620 --> 00:10:39,798
wanting us to present it online
or repeat it or whatever,

252
00:10:39,798 --> 00:10:42,802
but we don't charge for it
because we want to have a

253
00:10:42,802 --> 00:10:44,778
relationship with our readers.

254
00:10:44,778 --> 00:10:46,940
We used to have a lot of things.

255
00:10:46,940 --> 00:10:50,517
The editorial board used to
give the LiveWire presentations

256
00:10:50,517 --> 00:10:53,884
and things like that, but
to get a lot of people

257
00:10:53,884 --> 00:10:57,677
in and be representative,
we don't charge.

258
00:10:57,677 --> 00:11:01,320
It's like $5, but it does cost
money, and it costs staff time,

259
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,080
and it costs rental fees to put
things on, as you all know.

260
00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,440
So that's a hard balance.

261
00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,432
How do you make money
off of events to bring

262
00:11:09,432 --> 00:11:12,312
people to your message
yet still make it so

263
00:11:12,312 --> 00:11:13,879
that everyone can come?

264
00:11:13,879 --> 00:11:17,340
It'll get cut if you don't
charge a rate for it.

265
00:11:17,340 --> 00:11:19,254
As a publisher, I was just
like, all right, what

266
00:11:19,254 --> 00:11:20,139
the fuck are we doing?

267
00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:20,620
I'm sorry.

268
00:11:22,820 --> 00:11:24,557
Sorry. Seattle Channel.

269
00:11:24,557 --> 00:11:25,259
Seattle Channel.

270
00:11:25,259 --> 00:11:26,480
Sorry, I'm already.

271
00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:27,759
But, like, why are
we doing this?

272
00:11:27,759 --> 00:11:32,134
It's nice to connect with
the readers, but if you can

273
00:11:32,134 --> 00:11:37,019
charge $15, then at least you
have some source of revenue.

274
00:11:37,019 --> 00:11:39,399
It's just not sustainable
like anything else.

275
00:11:39,399 --> 00:11:40,639
No, it's why we don't do it.

276
00:11:40,639 --> 00:11:42,918
We talked about charging.

277
00:11:42,918 --> 00:11:45,778
I and several of us once
advocated for charging

278
00:11:45,778 --> 00:11:47,320
for pictures of the year.

279
00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,500
These are Pulitzer-winning
photographers.

280
00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:52,538
This is a ton of work
to put this together.

281
00:11:52,538 --> 00:11:55,706
We should charge and
the consensus was always

282
00:11:55,706 --> 00:11:58,798
you know no this is this
is goodwill but you can't

283
00:11:58,798 --> 00:12:01,734
eat goodwill the thing I like
about it I mean because we're

284
00:12:01,734 --> 00:12:04,437
told now that we have to be
on youtube which we're doing

285
00:12:04,437 --> 00:12:06,681
um even though it makes
no sense to me why would

286
00:12:06,681 --> 00:12:09,158
you sit and watch youtube when
you can listen to it while

287
00:12:09,158 --> 00:12:11,740
you're like doing the dishes but
younger people that's the way

288
00:12:11,740 --> 00:12:15,666
they're accessing podcasts
and we're told to create

289
00:12:15,666 --> 00:12:19,143
30 second reels from that
and you have to hook the

290
00:12:19,143 --> 00:12:22,940
viewer within the first three
seconds so it's just not

291
00:12:22,940 --> 00:12:25,173
that appealing to me to think
about the type of person

292
00:12:25,173 --> 00:12:27,519
I'm gonna get to listen to
an hour and a half podcast

293
00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:29,740
that can only be hooked
they only have a three

294
00:12:29,740 --> 00:12:32,542
second attention span versus
people that want news and

295
00:12:32,542 --> 00:12:34,706
they want to come to live
events it seems like a

296
00:12:34,706 --> 00:12:37,080
little bit more in keeping
with the kind of journalism

297
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,320
that we got into this business
for in the first place, right?

298
00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:41,918
And especially what
you cover, right,

299
00:12:41,918 --> 00:12:43,240
is such part of our community.

300
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,600
People want to see, want
to be part of it, right?

301
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,840
And it's nice, and you
should get paid for it.

302
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,018
Well, on the topic of
pressures, I'm going to push

303
00:12:52,018 --> 00:12:54,320
back on my generation
wanting short and

304
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:55,918
stupid content online.

305
00:12:55,918 --> 00:12:56,759
Listen to me.

306
00:12:56,759 --> 00:12:59,860
We've talked about
your generation.

307
00:12:59,860 --> 00:13:01,480
We'll get there.

308
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:02,620
We'll get there.

309
00:13:02,620 --> 00:13:03,778
If the shoe fits, I'm sorry.

310
00:13:05,220 --> 00:13:07,984
Well, on the topic of
pressures, we talked

311
00:13:07,984 --> 00:13:09,879
about financial pressures.

312
00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:10,538
I didn't say that.

313
00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:13,676
David, I think you've
experienced pressures from a

314
00:13:13,676 --> 00:13:14,980
lot of different angles as well.

315
00:13:14,980 --> 00:13:17,221
There was a fun interview
I listened to, blocked and

316
00:13:17,221 --> 00:13:20,538
reported with you and Sandeep,
discussing the road that

317
00:13:20,538 --> 00:13:22,500
led you to today, I guess.

318
00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:24,340
And you watched the culture
of public radio change.

319
00:13:24,340 --> 00:13:27,447
You said the traditional pursuit
of objectivity gradually gave

320
00:13:27,447 --> 00:13:29,057
way to more one-sided reporting.

321
00:13:29,057 --> 00:13:29,850
That's a quote.

322
00:13:29,850 --> 00:13:31,918
And not necessarily
because management

323
00:13:31,918 --> 00:13:34,537
ordered it, but because
certain viewpoints became

324
00:13:34,537 --> 00:13:37,580
increasingly difficult to
challenge inside the newsroom.

325
00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:38,802
Now you're independent.

326
00:13:38,802 --> 00:13:41,302
You don't have, you know,
a newsroom hierarchy or an

327
00:13:41,302 --> 00:13:44,038
institutional editorial
process in quite the same way.

328
00:13:44,038 --> 00:13:47,316
So which is the bigger threat to
journalism today, institutional

329
00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:49,995
pressure or the pressure
on independent journalists

330
00:13:49,995 --> 00:13:52,320
to tell their audiences
what they want to hear?

331
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,254
I mean, that's a great question
because, I mean, if you're

332
00:13:55,254 --> 00:13:57,576
doing an independent
blog, if you're Erica C.

333
00:13:57,576 --> 00:13:59,533
Barnett, can you
afford to offend your

334
00:13:59,533 --> 00:14:01,000
audience at a certain point?

335
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,224
I mean, it's, you know,
we're not really making

336
00:14:03,224 --> 00:14:05,619
any money, so I guess we
can offend whoever we want.

337
00:14:06,820 --> 00:14:09,940
But, yeah, I mean, I do
think that there was a lot

338
00:14:09,940 --> 00:14:13,700
of slippage in certainly not
just my news organization,

339
00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:15,379
all over blue city media.

340
00:14:15,379 --> 00:14:18,177
I mean, let's not even talk
about ideological conformity

341
00:14:18,177 --> 00:14:20,918
and sort of MAGA media because
that's just too terrible.

342
00:14:20,918 --> 00:14:22,100
It can't even be satirized.

343
00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:24,932
But, you know, yeah, I think
there was some slippage

344
00:14:24,932 --> 00:14:26,580
towards one-sided coverage.

345
00:14:26,580 --> 00:14:28,557
I think we're sort of recovering
from that a little bit.

346
00:14:28,557 --> 00:14:30,580
but I don't know
what you all think.

347
00:14:30,580 --> 00:14:34,677
If you have a Patreon, right,
and you live off that,

348
00:14:34,677 --> 00:14:37,460
and you get a big
check from somebody,

349
00:14:37,460 --> 00:14:41,341
it won't be like a quid pro
quo, but you're going to think

350
00:14:41,341 --> 00:14:43,519
about it a little bit
before you fry that person.

351
00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:44,080
You probably would.

352
00:14:46,620 --> 00:14:50,639
Well, the stranger never exactly
pretended to be neutral,

353
00:14:50,639 --> 00:14:52,740
so what was that advantage?

354
00:14:52,740 --> 00:14:54,220
We fried everybody.

355
00:14:54,220 --> 00:14:55,080
Yeah, fair enough.

356
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,423
So how do you balance
being trustworthy and also

357
00:14:58,423 --> 00:15:00,177
trying to make ends meet?

358
00:15:00,177 --> 00:15:00,899
Does that ever?

359
00:15:00,899 --> 00:15:03,672
Yeah, I can't really
speak necessarily for how

360
00:15:03,672 --> 00:15:06,798
editorial runs now in the
Mercury or any of the papers.

361
00:15:06,798 --> 00:15:10,855
But when I was a publisher
there, we tried to do

362
00:15:10,855 --> 00:15:12,778
a reported argument.

363
00:15:12,778 --> 00:15:15,700
You have to get
your facts right.

364
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:19,620
You have to be rigorous
in your reporting.

365
00:15:19,620 --> 00:15:21,200
But then you have an opinion.

366
00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:24,278
Both of my parents
were newspaper people

367
00:15:24,278 --> 00:15:28,639
and we would have newspaper
parties at our house.

368
00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:30,399
We're all reporters.

369
00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:33,080
And I kind of wanted
to capture that vibe

370
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:36,820
of when people are
talking in the kitchen

371
00:15:36,820 --> 00:15:40,200
and a little drunk and
talking what their opinion,

372
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,158
they know the subject
they're talking about

373
00:15:43,158 --> 00:15:45,399
but they're open to talk,
have an opinion on it.

374
00:15:45,399 --> 00:15:48,200
And that's kind of what the
stranger has tried to do.

375
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,315
And it depends on, you know,
but that's also an easy,

376
00:15:51,315 --> 00:15:54,720
that can be a slippery slope,
right, like anything else.

377
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,062
But nobody thinks that the
stranger is going to be

378
00:15:58,062 --> 00:16:00,100
incredibly balanced, right?

379
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:01,580
You don't go into
it thinking it.

380
00:16:01,580 --> 00:16:05,259
So that's a little bit
of a safety valve.

381
00:16:05,259 --> 00:16:06,139
For sure, for sure.

382
00:16:06,139 --> 00:16:07,080
That makes sense.

383
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,581
So going way back, in
2013, you actually, you

384
00:16:09,581 --> 00:16:12,562
talked about how the Onion
satire depended on people

385
00:16:12,562 --> 00:16:15,879
recognizing the conventions
of traditional newspapers.

386
00:16:15,879 --> 00:16:18,408
You know, we've seen the
radical democratization of

387
00:16:18,408 --> 00:16:21,339
the information ecosystem
where journalists, podcasters,

388
00:16:21,339 --> 00:16:23,868
politicians, influencers,
comedians, they're all

389
00:16:23,868 --> 00:16:25,418
competing for the same tension.

390
00:16:25,418 --> 00:16:28,634
And sometimes the person with
the most entertaining take has

391
00:16:28,634 --> 00:16:31,980
more influence than the person
who actually did the reporting.

392
00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:33,980
so I'm curious what
does everyone think

393
00:16:33,980 --> 00:16:36,100
are we a better informed
public or have we

394
00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:38,120
just got better at making
the news entertaining

395
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,580
you know a bigger
hook so to speak

396
00:16:40,580 --> 00:16:41,019
Melissa what do you think

397
00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:45,980
we're more entertained
I don't know

398
00:16:45,980 --> 00:16:47,879
that we're any smarter I think

399
00:16:49,460 --> 00:16:52,878
the problem with
get off my lawn the

400
00:16:52,878 --> 00:16:56,240
problem with social
media is that

401
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:58,139
because especially
from a newspaper

402
00:16:58,139 --> 00:17:01,264
paper, journalism's point of
view, it is so easy to push

403
00:17:01,264 --> 00:17:02,759
out an incorrect message,

404
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,152
misinformation, disinformation,
things that are actually, it's

405
00:17:07,152 --> 00:17:09,813
not just things that are wrong,
it's things that are harmful.

406
00:17:09,813 --> 00:17:13,019
For instance, the anti-vaccine
movement, climate denialism,

407
00:17:13,019 --> 00:17:14,327
those kind of things.

408
00:17:14,327 --> 00:17:16,586
It's so easy to push
that out, and it's

409
00:17:16,586 --> 00:17:19,616
so hard to cut through that,
in part because of the

410
00:17:19,616 --> 00:17:22,337
gatekeeping of Meta,
Zuckerberg, et al.,

411
00:17:22,337 --> 00:17:24,160
to get the correct
message out there.

412
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,622
People are so bombarded
with this crap that when

413
00:17:27,622 --> 00:17:30,280
the real stuff comes out,
they're like, oh, no, I

414
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:31,259
already heard about that.

415
00:17:31,259 --> 00:17:32,617
You're not right.

416
00:17:32,617 --> 00:17:36,277
And it's appalling the people
who believe everything

417
00:17:36,277 --> 00:17:37,740
they see on Facebook.

418
00:17:37,740 --> 00:17:40,078
I mean, you don't want to think
your friends or your family

419
00:17:40,078 --> 00:17:41,298
or what have you believe that.

420
00:17:41,298 --> 00:17:43,682
But, you know, we've all
had that discussion, I'm

421
00:17:43,682 --> 00:17:44,960
sure, with aging parents,

422
00:17:46,420 --> 00:17:47,837
friends, relatives, whatever.

423
00:17:47,837 --> 00:17:49,440
Like, no, you can't
believe that crap.

424
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:50,920
It's a Russian bot.

425
00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,500
They're feeding that to
you because you clicked

426
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:54,577
on the ferret video.

427
00:17:54,577 --> 00:17:55,000
It's not

428
00:17:58,057 --> 00:18:01,433
real news and we're just

429
00:18:01,433 --> 00:18:02,817
fighting this tide.

430
00:18:02,817 --> 00:18:04,380
We're beat, frankly.

431
00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:06,337
We just can't get the real
stuff out there because

432
00:18:06,337 --> 00:18:09,617
the fake and misinformation
is just beating us.

433
00:18:09,617 --> 00:18:11,460
It's really discouraging.

434
00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:14,125
How does journalism and
the Seattle Times fight

435
00:18:14,125 --> 00:18:15,940
the algorithm to stay relevant?

436
00:18:15,940 --> 00:18:19,380
Well, in Facebook, we found
that we can't, honestly.

437
00:18:19,380 --> 00:18:21,980
I hope my publisher isn't here.

438
00:18:21,980 --> 00:18:23,880
You used to be able to pay.

439
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,557
We played that game that
the bots and such play.

440
00:18:26,557 --> 00:18:27,577
You can pay to boost.

441
00:18:27,577 --> 00:18:31,298
And we will do that with things
like editorial endorsements.

442
00:18:31,298 --> 00:18:34,778
Shameless plug for the
Seattle Times endorsements.

443
00:18:34,778 --> 00:18:36,817
And public
service-oriented things.

444
00:18:36,817 --> 00:18:40,220
But we just can't get
traction with Facebook,

445
00:18:40,220 --> 00:18:42,097
especially editorials.

446
00:18:42,097 --> 00:18:45,335
I mean, we're one of the
very few newspapers in the

447
00:18:45,335 --> 00:18:49,122
country that still offers a
full opinion page with op-eds

448
00:18:49,122 --> 00:18:50,699
and a section on Sunday.

449
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:51,880
But people just don't read it.

450
00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,140
We get no traffic
off of Facebook.

451
00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:56,200
That's a mystery to me.

452
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,640
But I guess they'd rather
look at ferret videos.

453
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,298
So I don't know
what the answer is.

454
00:19:02,298 --> 00:19:03,220
We're trying.

455
00:19:03,220 --> 00:19:04,980
We're going to threads.

456
00:19:04,980 --> 00:19:06,057
We're going to blue sky.

457
00:19:06,057 --> 00:19:08,019
We're going to
friendlier things.

458
00:19:08,019 --> 00:19:11,328
We are looking at podcasting
in the editorial department

459
00:19:11,328 --> 00:19:14,159
because we do have a lot
of information to impart.

460
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:14,857
Fingers crossed.

461
00:19:14,857 --> 00:19:15,660
Another shameless plug.

462
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,653
I'd watch that or listen to
that podcast about the Seattle

463
00:19:20,653 --> 00:19:24,380
Times doing their, like if
it was kind of office-like.

464
00:19:24,380 --> 00:19:25,317
It would be.

465
00:19:25,317 --> 00:19:27,183
It would be very similar to
the office and there might be

466
00:19:27,183 --> 00:19:28,200
some drinking in the kitchen.

467
00:19:30,298 --> 00:19:32,057
But would you pay for that?

468
00:19:33,057 --> 00:19:34,380
I paid for the Seattle Times.

469
00:19:34,380 --> 00:19:37,509
So we're looking to
get into that space,

470
00:19:37,509 --> 00:19:39,220
but not with ferrets.

471
00:19:39,220 --> 00:19:43,104
Do you remember that Danny
Westneat column from the aughts

472
00:19:43,104 --> 00:19:44,836
about the horse sex case?

473
00:19:44,837 --> 00:19:45,880
Oh, yes.

474
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,190
And it was basically, this
is our number one story in

475
00:19:48,190 --> 00:19:49,480
the Seattle Times this year.

476
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,288
And he was going, and this
is before social media.

477
00:19:52,288 --> 00:19:55,410
And he's asking the question,
you know, what's going to happen

478
00:19:55,410 --> 00:19:58,230
when editors are chasing,
nothing against, you know, of

479
00:19:58,230 --> 00:20:01,230
course, everyone wants to read
a few stories about horse sex

480
00:20:01,230 --> 00:20:04,288
at Neiman's Club, but like, you
know, what's going to happen?

481
00:20:04,288 --> 00:20:06,670
Charles Rady wrote a
feature, he did a movie.

482
00:20:06,670 --> 00:20:09,325
But what's going to happen when
editors are looking at those

483
00:20:09,325 --> 00:20:11,768
clicks and making decisions
about what to cover on that

484
00:20:11,768 --> 00:20:14,210
basis, if that were to happen,
was kind of his question.

485
00:20:14,210 --> 00:20:18,910
Well, that's the Faustian
bargain, right, that we've made.

486
00:20:18,910 --> 00:20:22,732
When I worked in features a
long time ago, I prided myself

487
00:20:22,732 --> 00:20:24,769
on being the fine arts editor.

488
00:20:24,769 --> 00:20:27,509
But I was not above
some clickbait.

489
00:20:27,509 --> 00:20:30,919
The Seahawks got a
shout-out from, I don't

490
00:20:30,919 --> 00:20:35,009
know, so-and-so most famous
author on the planet.

491
00:20:35,009 --> 00:20:37,390
Talked something about
Richard Sherman or whatever.

492
00:20:37,390 --> 00:20:40,210
And boom, thousands,
thousands of clicks.

493
00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:42,990
But on the other hand, you
know, that entertains people,

494
00:20:42,990 --> 00:20:44,847
people of the
Seahawks, 12th Man,

495
00:20:44,847 --> 00:20:47,327
but is that really
what we're here for?

496
00:20:47,327 --> 00:20:47,970
I don't know.

497
00:20:47,970 --> 00:20:50,415
A little bit I'd like
to throw or push back

498
00:20:50,415 --> 00:20:52,601
a little bit on that is
that you want to bring

499
00:20:52,601 --> 00:20:53,890
people into the publication.

500
00:20:54,910 --> 00:20:56,930
And so that's why
you have horoscopes

501
00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:59,970
and you have crossword puzzles
and all that stuff is great,

502
00:20:59,970 --> 00:21:04,390
but it's a way to get
into the publication.

503
00:21:04,390 --> 00:21:07,650
And also, you want
to make change.

504
00:21:07,650 --> 00:21:10,367
You do a huge feature, you
want people to read it, right?

505
00:21:10,367 --> 00:21:12,347
That's the reason why
everybody's in this.

506
00:21:12,347 --> 00:21:14,250
And so looking at
what the clicks are,

507
00:21:14,250 --> 00:21:17,261
learning how that works,
understanding just that

508
00:21:17,261 --> 00:21:19,634
world and caring about
it, I think isn't

509
00:21:19,634 --> 00:21:22,405
Faustian necessarily
as long as you keep

510
00:21:22,405 --> 00:21:23,970
your moral compass.

511
00:21:23,970 --> 00:21:26,970
I think that's kind of,
it's necessary, I get it,

512
00:21:26,970 --> 00:21:31,386
But I also feel like, again,
what are we doing it for?

513
00:21:31,390 --> 00:21:34,367
And if we're leaning, at
what point does that end?

514
00:21:35,548 --> 00:21:38,410
I mean, if people have
three-second attention spans,

515
00:21:38,410 --> 00:21:40,130
is it going to be one-second
attention span in the future?

516
00:21:40,130 --> 00:21:44,170
Like, at what point do we
entertain ourselves to death?

517
00:21:44,170 --> 00:21:45,048
Well, right now.

518
00:21:46,670 --> 00:21:50,460
And it's a lot of work to make
sure that you are maintaining

519
00:21:50,460 --> 00:21:54,011
a moral compass, you are
chasing the right clicks, and

520
00:21:54,011 --> 00:21:57,883
that you are directing people
to your big features and your

521
00:21:57,883 --> 00:22:01,910
investigative work and your
Pulitzer Prize-worthy things.

522
00:22:01,910 --> 00:22:05,778
I mean, that's a lot of work
and it's a hard balance.

523
00:22:05,778 --> 00:22:09,470
How many Faustian, you know,
encounters do I have to

524
00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:12,430
have to get people to
read about, you know, why

525
00:22:13,650 --> 00:22:16,067
something is going horribly
wrong in our justice system?

526
00:22:16,067 --> 00:22:18,567
You know, you hope you're
funneling those people,

527
00:22:18,567 --> 00:22:19,528
but I don't know.

528
00:22:19,528 --> 00:22:21,788
Another question
would be what's wrong

529
00:22:21,788 --> 00:22:23,076
with having a smaller audience?

530
00:22:23,076 --> 00:22:24,693
I mean, it's what's
gonna happen anyway.

531
00:22:24,693 --> 00:22:25,847
Oh, it's already happened.

532
00:22:27,107 --> 00:22:28,730
Those people that are actually
interested in the news.

533
00:22:28,730 --> 00:22:30,710
Well, I'd rather
have that myself.

534
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:32,285
I have people who are
deeply involved, who

535
00:22:32,285 --> 00:22:34,423
are reading, who are
offering good comments,

536
00:22:34,423 --> 00:22:36,910
don't start me on,
who are engaged

537
00:22:36,910 --> 00:22:39,150
and want to make
a change in their

538
00:22:39,150 --> 00:22:40,539
communities. That's what
I would rather have.

539
00:22:40,539 --> 00:22:42,066
It's like that spinal tap thing.

540
00:22:42,066 --> 00:22:43,795
Our audience isn't
getting smaller,

541
00:22:43,795 --> 00:22:44,490
it's just getting

542
00:22:48,048 --> 00:22:49,028
But you don't, right?

543
00:22:49,028 --> 00:22:51,028
The Seattle Times is
the city's newspaper,

544
00:22:51,028 --> 00:22:52,950
right? You want the whole
city to read that thing.

545
00:22:52,950 --> 00:22:54,250
I would love it.

546
00:22:54,250 --> 00:22:54,750
Please do.

547
00:22:54,750 --> 00:22:56,307
You don't want a
smaller audience.

548
00:22:56,307 --> 00:22:57,796
It doesn't make,
the Seattle Times

549
00:22:57,796 --> 00:22:58,548
doesn't make sense.

550
00:22:58,548 --> 00:23:00,298
I read the Seattle Times
because I'm thinking

551
00:23:00,298 --> 00:23:01,563
that other people
are also reading

552
00:23:01,563 --> 00:23:02,307
the Seattle Times.

553
00:23:02,307 --> 00:23:03,894
But if they're reading
just to read about

554
00:23:03,894 --> 00:23:05,087
Jimothy at some point.

555
00:23:05,087 --> 00:23:06,048
Hey, hey, hey.

556
00:23:07,230 --> 00:23:08,307
He's better than a ferret.

557
00:23:09,867 --> 00:23:12,327
Well, maybe you'll have to make
your own version of Wordle

558
00:23:12,327 --> 00:23:13,827
or something like that.

559
00:23:13,827 --> 00:23:14,847
And I'll be doing
it every morning.

560
00:23:14,847 --> 00:23:15,890
I'll be checking.

561
00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:18,028
Do you get a, do you
have a subscription

562
00:23:18,028 --> 00:23:18,630
to the Seattle Times?

563
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:19,107
Yeah, of course.

564
00:23:19,107 --> 00:23:21,730
And the New York Times, but
I will say I use Wordle.

565
00:23:21,730 --> 00:23:23,509
In print or in the
mini every day?

566
00:23:23,509 --> 00:23:24,670
Do you just print
or just online?

567
00:23:24,670 --> 00:23:25,910
I have it on my phone.

568
00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:26,769
I'm on the move.

569
00:23:27,867 --> 00:23:30,855
Somebody I know well
actually works for the New

570
00:23:30,855 --> 00:23:33,765
York Times and told me,
well, so the cooking app and

571
00:23:33,765 --> 00:23:37,915
the games app, that's
growing, but their news only

572
00:23:37,915 --> 00:23:41,210
stuff is going like this.

573
00:23:41,210 --> 00:23:42,390
So, yeah.

574
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:43,210
Well, I think that's amazing.

575
00:23:43,210 --> 00:23:43,970
We need Wordle apps.

576
00:23:43,970 --> 00:23:45,009
We need cooking apps.

577
00:23:45,009 --> 00:23:46,892
But that's a doom
scrolling, I think, as

578
00:23:46,892 --> 00:23:48,086
we talked about earlier.

579
00:23:48,087 --> 00:23:51,690
I think that's a little bit of
a doom scrolling phenomenon.

580
00:23:51,690 --> 00:23:54,450
If all you're looking at is
bad, bad, bad, bad, bad,

581
00:23:54,450 --> 00:23:57,034
you think I would like
to cook, have a hobby,

582
00:23:57,034 --> 00:23:59,606
do wordle connections, what
have you, so it's nice to

583
00:23:59,606 --> 00:24:00,890
have all those things together.

584
00:24:00,890 --> 00:24:03,547
I will read something
about Ukraine, and then I

585
00:24:03,547 --> 00:24:04,910
will go do spelling bee.

586
00:24:04,910 --> 00:24:06,929
Yeah, and I think those
combo subscriptions are

587
00:24:06,929 --> 00:24:08,086
doing really well for that.

588
00:24:08,087 --> 00:24:09,145
I can see why.

589
00:24:09,145 --> 00:24:10,107
I like mine.

590
00:24:10,107 --> 00:24:11,670
But what about the paywall?

591
00:24:11,670 --> 00:24:13,367
Is that working out
for the Seattle Times?

592
00:24:14,607 --> 00:24:15,788
It is.

593
00:24:15,788 --> 00:24:19,170
People are paying
to get beyond it.

594
00:24:20,190 --> 00:24:23,567
Op-ed writers don't like it
that we don't give gift links

595
00:24:23,567 --> 00:24:25,130
because they want to share
it with all their friends.

596
00:24:26,730 --> 00:24:28,288
Yeah, why don't you
give gift links?

597
00:24:28,288 --> 00:24:29,528
Why don't their
friends subscribe?

598
00:24:31,410 --> 00:24:34,750
Exactly. Your mom should
buy a subscription, friend.

599
00:24:35,827 --> 00:24:39,950
What we do, technicality, is on
your contract, it says that you

600
00:24:39,950 --> 00:24:42,087
retain the rights to your piece.

601
00:24:42,087 --> 00:24:44,423
I don't know how many places
do this, but they're free

602
00:24:44,423 --> 00:24:45,587
to republish it once we do.

603
00:24:45,587 --> 00:24:48,130
They can republish it
wherever they would like.

604
00:24:48,130 --> 00:24:49,261
Wait a second.

605
00:24:49,261 --> 00:24:50,210
Who owns it?

606
00:24:50,210 --> 00:24:50,861
The writer.

607
00:24:50,861 --> 00:24:51,509
The writer.

608
00:24:51,509 --> 00:24:53,528
The op-ed writer
retains the rights.

609
00:24:53,528 --> 00:24:54,650
Sorry, I didn't explain
that very well.

610
00:24:54,650 --> 00:24:55,307
They don't.

611
00:24:55,307 --> 00:24:57,740
There's both the Seattle Times and the writer.

612
00:24:57,740 --> 00:25:00,805
So once I publish it, say,
you could put your piece

613
00:25:00,805 --> 00:25:03,942
in a massive LinkedIn post
or on your blog or in your

614
00:25:03,942 --> 00:25:07,006
newsletter or what have you,
and just say, all we ask is

615
00:25:07,006 --> 00:25:09,778
that you attribute it to us,
that we published it first.

616
00:25:09,778 --> 00:25:12,660
So that satisfies people
for the most part.

617
00:25:12,660 --> 00:25:14,136
But then they don't
come to the paper.

618
00:25:14,140 --> 00:25:14,960
That seems crazy.

619
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:16,160
Well, we would like them to.

620
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,732
We'd like them to say, hey, we
share these great op-eds on

621
00:25:18,732 --> 00:25:21,189
all kinds of different topics,
so don't you think that's

622
00:25:21,189 --> 00:25:22,117
worth subscribing to?

623
00:25:23,420 --> 00:25:25,146
On this point, I have seen
Melissa start to post

624
00:25:25,146 --> 00:25:27,750
on her personal LinkedIn
all your new op-eds every

625
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:30,940
day, so you guys should
add Melissa on LinkedIn.

626
00:25:30,940 --> 00:25:32,920
But I think, David,
you strike a balance

627
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,180
between on Seattle Nice.

628
00:25:34,180 --> 00:25:34,688
It is fun.

629
00:25:34,688 --> 00:25:36,972
I enjoy listening to you
guys, but I can only

630
00:25:36,972 --> 00:25:38,500
do an hour every couple days.

631
00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:40,519
And I'm curious, what's
that balance like?

632
00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:43,019
You have three very
strong personalities.

633
00:25:43,019 --> 00:25:44,980
At least two very
strong personalities.

634
00:25:44,980 --> 00:25:46,000
And then me.

635
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,538
- Yeah.

636
00:25:48,538 --> 00:25:50,019
- A reasonable personality.

637
00:25:50,019 --> 00:25:51,577
- What's the question?

638
00:25:51,577 --> 00:25:52,759
- I'll just, how do you
strike that balance?

639
00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:53,740
You know, you make
it entertaining.

640
00:25:53,740 --> 00:25:55,440
It is the news, you know, we're
talking about current events

641
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,400
and different thoughts
and perspectives on it.

642
00:25:57,400 --> 00:25:59,038
- I mean, I think
Seattle Nice is a pretty

643
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:02,940
great institution in some ways.

644
00:26:02,940 --> 00:26:04,759
And you know, if the Seattle
Times is interested,

645
00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:05,960
like we could talk.

646
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,700
But you know,
basically like, look,

647
00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:13,200
it covers the full range of
Seattle politics, I think.

648
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,538
And I sort of felt like
those kinds of conversations

649
00:26:15,538 --> 00:26:18,087
were missing, and I think
it opens us up to talking

650
00:26:18,087 --> 00:26:19,006
to one another.

651
00:26:19,006 --> 00:26:20,837
Erica and Sandeep, old friends

652
00:26:20,837 --> 00:26:23,557
from their stranger days,
still talking to one another

653
00:26:23,557 --> 00:26:25,521
despite their
political differences.

654
00:26:25,521 --> 00:26:27,393
The last two people
from old stranger

655
00:26:27,393 --> 00:26:28,597
days who actually talk.

656
00:26:30,140 --> 00:26:31,960
I think they talked
to Josh Feit.

657
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,015
But anyway, yeah, so I kind
of love it, but I don't know

658
00:26:35,015 --> 00:26:36,817
if that answers your question.

659
00:26:36,817 --> 00:26:38,200
Yeah, no, fair enough.

660
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,855
You know, the hot topic,
AI, so we're going

661
00:26:40,855 --> 00:26:42,298
to transition to that.

662
00:26:42,298 --> 00:26:44,499
So, Melissa, in June you
wrote a column titled,

663
00:26:44,500 --> 00:26:48,259
This Opinion Was Written by a
Human, Yours Should Be Too.

664
00:26:48,259 --> 00:26:50,923
It pulls into question, how
many people are writing in AI

665
00:26:50,923 --> 00:26:53,519
that you have to catch
and say, this won't work?

666
00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:55,238
But, you know, you made
the case that an opinion

667
00:26:55,238 --> 00:26:57,220
essay should reflect
someone's actual experiences,

668
00:26:57,220 --> 00:26:58,117
you know, pretty fair.

669
00:26:59,117 --> 00:27:00,640
And Seattle Times has
drawn a firm line

670
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,640
against publishing
AI-generated reader opinions.

671
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,019
But suppose the Seattle
Times keeps producing

672
00:27:06,019 --> 00:27:07,940
excellent human-written
journalism,

673
00:27:07,940 --> 00:27:10,519
but an AI company summarizes
it for a million people

674
00:27:10,519 --> 00:27:12,000
who never visit your website.

675
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,380
What are the consequences
of this problem?

676
00:27:14,380 --> 00:27:18,577
Well, seething hatred on my
part would be some of it.

677
00:27:18,577 --> 00:27:21,538
That's why we don't
take AI-generated.

678
00:27:21,538 --> 00:27:22,940
I don't even like
people using it.

679
00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:24,500
People say, well, I
use it to polish.

680
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:26,960
I don't like that either.

681
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,259
That does alter with scraped
material that you did not pay

682
00:27:31,259 --> 00:27:35,487
for, speaking of paywalls,
that alters your own thoughts

683
00:27:35,487 --> 00:27:38,778
with somebody else's
and regurgitates them.

684
00:27:38,778 --> 00:27:42,400
So I don't like anything touched
by AI at all as an op-ed.

685
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,057
I realize that's
hard, A, hard to do.

686
00:27:45,057 --> 00:27:46,817
I do use a detector.

687
00:27:46,817 --> 00:27:48,900
and I also realize it's a little
bit of a swimming upstream

688
00:27:50,097 --> 00:27:52,837
salmon going their
own way a little bit

689
00:27:52,837 --> 00:27:56,357
but I do as much as I can to
keep it as humanly possible

690
00:27:56,357 --> 00:27:59,778
I always look for
the hyper, the dash

691
00:28:00,940 --> 00:28:03,720
well we've moved
that ship has sailed

692
00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:08,597
there are tells
there's a cadence

693
00:28:08,597 --> 00:28:10,278
and a very artificial
rhythm that

694
00:28:11,420 --> 00:28:14,077
regular folks who are
writing don't use

695
00:28:14,077 --> 00:28:15,240
For now.

696
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:15,759
For now.

697
00:28:16,759 --> 00:28:17,880
Also reshaping.

698
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,180
There's a great deal
of reshaping going on.

699
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,160
And also things that
were never built.

700
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,761
A was never built for B.

701
00:28:26,761 --> 00:28:28,817
Things like that.

702
00:28:28,817 --> 00:28:31,000
Or we couldn't then, we can now.

703
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,182
You know, there are these
weird little staccato

704
00:28:33,182 --> 00:28:35,420
sentences and also there
are certain vocabulary

705
00:28:35,420 --> 00:28:37,097
words that just you
can tell they're AI.

706
00:28:37,097 --> 00:28:39,298
And if I run it through
a pangram, bam.

707
00:28:39,298 --> 00:28:41,240
Sandeep loves the M-dash.

708
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:42,180
But he's not AI.

709
00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:43,220
He just uses it all the time.

710
00:28:43,220 --> 00:28:43,980
Some people do.

711
00:28:43,980 --> 00:28:47,019
Some people are dash
thinkers, which I understand.

712
00:28:47,019 --> 00:28:48,960
But I'm saying, how
do you distinguish?

713
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,880
Well, if you run it, you'll see.

714
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,640
But I happen to have a
kid in college who says,

715
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,019
you can get the AI
detector defeaters.

716
00:28:58,019 --> 00:29:00,038
It's called, like, you
can humanize your AI.

717
00:29:00,038 --> 00:29:02,344
Yes, there is an AI
humanizer, and there are

718
00:29:02,344 --> 00:29:03,876
now AI humanizer detectors.

719
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:04,817
I'm living that.

720
00:29:06,617 --> 00:29:09,440
This is the future
I want to have.

721
00:29:11,057 --> 00:29:14,259
Yes, and some people just use,
some people write that way,

722
00:29:14,259 --> 00:29:17,798
and after decades of editing,
I'm just hoping that

723
00:29:17,798 --> 00:29:20,500
I'm getting the genuine
people from the not.

724
00:29:20,500 --> 00:29:22,617
But nearly everyone
I have asked,

725
00:29:22,617 --> 00:29:24,400
hey, did you use a whole
bunch of AI in this?

726
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,940
They've all said yes, I did.

727
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:28,577
Interesting. Very honest.

728
00:29:28,577 --> 00:29:29,577
We'll take it, you know?

729
00:29:29,577 --> 00:29:33,092
Well, but just a caveat,
AI is extremely helpful

730
00:29:33,092 --> 00:29:35,200
for folks with disabilities

731
00:29:36,337 --> 00:29:40,057
who need it sometimes to read
and write things for us.

732
00:29:40,057 --> 00:29:44,880
And obviously, I cut, you know,
that's a different thing.

733
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:45,519
Fair enough.

734
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:47,479
Well, Tim, you helped create
The Onion and The Stranger

735
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,112
by recognizing opportunities
that established

736
00:29:50,112 --> 00:29:51,460
media companies missed.

737
00:29:51,460 --> 00:29:53,903
And if you were launching
either one or something

738
00:29:53,903 --> 00:29:56,384
totally new today, knowing
that AI could become

739
00:29:56,384 --> 00:29:59,057
the front door to nearly
everyone's information,

740
00:29:59,057 --> 00:30:00,019
what would you do differently?

741
00:30:00,019 --> 00:30:02,460
Or have you been
ruminating on any ideas?

742
00:30:02,460 --> 00:30:04,038
Like using AI to do something?

743
00:30:04,038 --> 00:30:06,250
Yeah, or, yeah, with
our current, you know,

744
00:30:06,250 --> 00:30:07,538
state of how things work.

745
00:30:07,538 --> 00:30:09,920
Yeah, like as a consumer, like
I want to do stuff that I've

746
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,298
always wanted to do stuff that
I'm interested in myself.

747
00:30:12,298 --> 00:30:15,900
And I feel like AI content,
you know, just like the

748
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,357
caramel-skinned people, weird.

749
00:30:18,357 --> 00:30:21,135
Like you start you can
everybody can pick it out

750
00:30:21,135 --> 00:30:24,057
incredibly quickly right
and like it's never

751
00:30:24,057 --> 00:30:26,720
I but I also feel like
if ai wrote an article

752
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,759
that was great and I
learned something I learned

753
00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:32,548
something about life I'd
be like okay that's fine

754
00:30:32,548 --> 00:30:35,337
but I feel like it's really
noticeable and not

755
00:30:35,337 --> 00:30:36,317
all that entertainment.

756
00:30:36,317 --> 00:30:39,240
But I think I would go
more towards print.

757
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,278
I'd go more towards
zine kind of stuff

758
00:30:42,278 --> 00:30:46,298
that it's more human than
human kind of aspect.

759
00:30:46,298 --> 00:30:49,298
People want the flaws and all.

760
00:30:50,337 --> 00:30:54,519
But I also feel like you
could do a slot machine

761
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:55,660
that was just great.

762
00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,740
I was thinking about doing
something called AI Gore,

763
00:31:00,740 --> 00:31:05,057
which looked like Al Gore
and it was just like crazy

764
00:31:05,057 --> 00:31:08,134
you know like a
multi-dimensional TV

765
00:31:08,134 --> 00:31:09,846
show kind of thing
it was zillions of

766
00:31:09,846 --> 00:31:12,093
stuff but like it's just
not I still haven't

767
00:31:12,093 --> 00:31:14,121
seen has anybody
seen anything read

768
00:31:14,121 --> 00:31:17,140
anything or saw a picture
or heard a song that was

769
00:31:17,140 --> 00:31:20,269
created by AI that like
in your heart of hearts

770
00:31:20,269 --> 00:31:22,500
was like that was
pretty good really

771
00:31:24,278 --> 00:31:27,909
really you see it that
it's like completely

772
00:31:27,909 --> 00:31:29,895
an AI generated thing
and you're like, I've

773
00:31:29,895 --> 00:31:31,240
learned a little bit of...

774
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,519
I've had these videos
and they come out

775
00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:34,837
in like 90 second, two
minute, three minute batches

776
00:31:34,837 --> 00:31:37,000
and you get a new chapter
every day and they're fun.

777
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,700
So like, tell me, like,
what is the name of it?

778
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:40,617
Like, what is it?

779
00:31:40,617 --> 00:31:42,337
If you know the name of it,
I just know the characters

780
00:31:42,337 --> 00:31:44,479
and I see them in
my feed, I'm sure.

781
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,400
Really? So they're
like short little...

782
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:46,900
Yeah, vertical.

783
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:48,900
It's like a story that
continues, vertical video.

784
00:31:50,097 --> 00:31:52,057
And do a lot of
people watch those?

785
00:31:52,057 --> 00:31:52,940
Do you guys, there's
a lot of people,

786
00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:54,569
do you guys watch
those and they're like

787
00:31:54,569 --> 00:31:55,660
genuinely entertaining?

788
00:31:55,660 --> 00:31:56,538
You might be on the frontier.

789
00:31:58,500 --> 00:31:59,538
No, no, I like it.

790
00:31:59,538 --> 00:32:01,519
I'm game.

791
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:03,640
Like, if it's fun to watch
and interesting, I'll do it.

792
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:04,617
I don't care.

793
00:32:04,617 --> 00:32:06,180
It doesn't grab us.

794
00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:07,380
We're out.

795
00:32:07,380 --> 00:32:08,097
That's your job.

796
00:32:08,097 --> 00:32:09,298
You got to grab it.

797
00:32:09,298 --> 00:32:12,480
There's a song about
the hugging face cap.

798
00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:15,140
It's brilliant.

799
00:32:15,140 --> 00:32:19,097
And Claude did not only, I don't
think Claude did the song,

800
00:32:19,097 --> 00:32:22,298
but Claude did a
music video for it.

801
00:32:22,298 --> 00:32:25,200
It's the anime's text music.

802
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,740
It's worlds beyond anything.

803
00:32:27,740 --> 00:32:28,900
You should repeat this.

804
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,798
Yeah, to our Seattle
Channel viewers,

805
00:32:31,798 --> 00:32:34,000
after the fact that we
heard from the audience

806
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,317
that people are seeing
AI-generated content,

807
00:32:37,317 --> 00:32:40,980
and it's scratching the itch,
and it's matching their...

808
00:32:40,980 --> 00:32:43,038
It's in their feed, so...

809
00:32:43,038 --> 00:32:44,480
Fair enough.

810
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:45,057
Two people.

811
00:32:45,057 --> 00:32:46,920
Two people of a full room.

812
00:32:48,857 --> 00:32:51,057
So I just want to bring
us back to Seattle here.

813
00:32:51,057 --> 00:32:53,173
So, you know, we talk
about billionaires

814
00:32:53,173 --> 00:32:55,711
owning media companies,
you know, objectivity,

815
00:32:55,711 --> 00:32:56,640
social media, AI.

816
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,239
But in Seattle, you know,
the past two decades,

817
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,317
the Seattle Times and The
Stranger have enormous influence

818
00:33:01,317 --> 00:33:02,940
over what the city talks about.

819
00:33:02,940 --> 00:33:05,574
So today we have so many,
you know, information

820
00:33:05,574 --> 00:33:07,057
actors creating content.

821
00:33:07,057 --> 00:33:08,180
More people can participate.

822
00:33:08,180 --> 00:33:11,038
You know, we have
podcasters and sub-stackers

823
00:33:11,038 --> 00:33:14,117
and, you know, random
Instagram influencers.

824
00:33:14,117 --> 00:33:16,960
And in many ways, that's an
extraordinary development.

825
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,130
But we're also living
through this, what feels

826
00:33:19,130 --> 00:33:20,019
like a war on truth.

827
00:33:20,019 --> 00:33:22,038
People don't trust institutions.

828
00:33:22,038 --> 00:33:26,112
And people inhabit totally
different worlds, information

829
00:33:26,112 --> 00:33:27,660
worlds, eco chambers.

830
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,231
And so have we made
information more democratic

831
00:33:31,231 --> 00:33:33,979
at the expense of making
truth harder to establish?

832
00:33:33,980 --> 00:33:36,200
I'm going to just offer
that out to anyone.

833
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:41,016
And then if we can't agree
on some basic facts, where

834
00:33:41,016 --> 00:33:43,480
is the city going to end up?

835
00:33:44,500 --> 00:33:46,880
It's consumer-driven, right?

836
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,117
We can't tell the consumer
what they want to do, right?

837
00:33:51,117 --> 00:33:56,729
If you guys find a 15-second
drama that's made by AI

838
00:33:56,729 --> 00:33:59,396
that's awesome, great.

839
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,452
Watch it right like it's not
you know it's not it's but

840
00:34:03,452 --> 00:34:07,105
if everything is 15 seconds if
you can't read a book if you

841
00:34:07,105 --> 00:34:10,719
can't put focus and intention on
something you're not going to

842
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,646
have a democracy you're not
going to have a world that works

843
00:34:13,646 --> 00:34:17,010
very well because stuff takes
some amount of attention and

844
00:34:17,010 --> 00:34:20,440
so and so there's no competing
with that if that works

845
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:25,367
works. We can't do, none of us
can do, who are journalists

846
00:34:25,367 --> 00:34:29,681
can do 15 second content and
bust out 8 million variations

847
00:34:29,681 --> 00:34:33,260
of it until something works
as an individual, as a human.

848
00:34:33,260 --> 00:34:35,280
Audience member: This was the
argument against printed books.

849
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:37,219
What's that?

850
00:34:37,219 --> 00:34:39,259
Audience member: That was the
argument against printed books.

851
00:34:39,260 --> 00:34:40,480
What was the argument
against printed books?

852
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,268
Audience member: People lamented
that you would have a book

853
00:34:42,268 --> 00:34:44,208
and you wouldn't sit down
and read and write it out

854
00:34:44,208 --> 00:34:47,119
yourself and you wouldn't have
the learning to think about

855
00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:50,739
I'm going to repeat this
for Seattle Channel viewers.

856
00:34:50,739 --> 00:34:53,376
Someone in the audience said
that was the argument against

857
00:34:53,376 --> 00:34:55,746
printed books and I didn't
catch the last part of that,

858
00:34:55,746 --> 00:34:56,777
but you want to respond?

859
00:34:56,780 --> 00:34:59,938
Well, and that it was a perverse
solitary pursuit, I think.

860
00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:01,498
It was one of the concerns
about books, but...

861
00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:04,900
Really? Sounds good.

862
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,539
A nice solitary pursuit.

863
00:35:09,539 --> 00:35:11,311
Just to say media consumption,
the method of media

864
00:35:11,311 --> 00:35:12,239
consumption has changed.

865
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:13,000
The method of media
consumption has changed.

866
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,518
It's changed a lot faster
than it has before.

867
00:35:14,518 --> 00:35:15,400
It's just changed.

868
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,260
Oh, it has.

869
00:35:16,260 --> 00:35:18,518
You have so many choices.

870
00:35:18,518 --> 00:35:19,659
But it's not all the same.

871
00:35:19,659 --> 00:35:20,460
Oh, I'm sorry.

872
00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:21,159
No, go ahead.

873
00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:22,440
No, it's not.

874
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,800
And I hope that people
like the short things,

875
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,500
a music video, Jimothy,
and War and Peace.

876
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:30,920
We have room in the world
for all of those things.

877
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,978
And it's okay if you
like the short things,

878
00:35:32,980 --> 00:35:35,739
but take a look at War
and Peace or whatever

879
00:35:35,739 --> 00:35:37,719
and see what's in there.

880
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:38,940
People need to be curious.

881
00:35:38,940 --> 00:35:41,911
That's what we're losing
is curiosity for the short

882
00:35:41,911 --> 00:35:43,639
lizard brain attention span.

883
00:35:43,639 --> 00:35:45,835
They're not curious
enough to sit down with

884
00:35:45,835 --> 00:35:48,518
something, I think, and see,
hey, what's this about?

885
00:35:48,518 --> 00:35:50,760
Who are these Russian
folks and why are they

886
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:51,818
always having a war?

887
00:35:51,820 --> 00:35:54,199
That's what I worry
about is curiosity.

888
00:35:54,199 --> 00:35:55,018
What's in the newspaper?

889
00:35:55,018 --> 00:35:55,719
What are people doing?

890
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:56,719
But it's not just curiosity.

891
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,360
I think curiosity is
a big part of it.

892
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,940
But I think just the
ability to do it.

893
00:36:00,940 --> 00:36:04,967
Like I think it takes effort
to do and I think you lose

894
00:36:04,967 --> 00:36:08,471
that at your ability
to Concentrate and follow

895
00:36:08,471 --> 00:36:09,619
through a difficult

896
00:36:11,539 --> 00:36:16,199
Concept takes effort and time
and if you never want to do that

897
00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:18,489
You'll never have that ability
to do it and so you don't

898
00:36:18,489 --> 00:36:20,889
know what you're missing
Right and maybe I can't

899
00:36:20,889 --> 00:36:23,619
enjoy the 17 second things
and I should speed up

900
00:36:23,619 --> 00:36:26,411
my mind a little bit more
But I do feel like it's like

901
00:36:26,411 --> 00:36:29,639
even if you're interested and
you never have read a book, when

902
00:36:29,639 --> 00:36:32,739
you start, you know, you read
the beginning of War and Peace

903
00:36:32,739 --> 00:36:35,905
and it's like that weird party
that everybody has, you know,

904
00:36:35,905 --> 00:36:39,260
their patronyms and there's 30
characters and nobody matters.

905
00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:40,840
Well, maybe don't start there.

906
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,813
And it's like you just you're
not going to muscle through

907
00:36:43,813 --> 00:36:47,039
that and then get into these
really interesting characters.

908
00:36:47,039 --> 00:36:49,271
And so I think part of it
is just I think people

909
00:36:49,271 --> 00:36:50,599
are losing the ability to.

910
00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:52,360
Well, it's the
devices themselves.

911
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,360
I mean, if I talk to people
that are serious readers,

912
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,338
I don't care if it's you or me
or Sandeep Kaushik or whatever,

913
00:36:58,340 --> 00:37:01,199
they will admit to me they're
having a slightly harder time

914
00:37:01,199 --> 00:37:02,780
concentrating than they used to.

915
00:37:02,780 --> 00:37:05,199
And so there's the
entertainment piece of it,

916
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:07,460
but yeah, what is it
doing to our brains?

917
00:37:07,460 --> 00:37:10,938
It's a much larger problem
that we certainly can't solve

918
00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:14,480
by creating media necessarily,
but it is a problem.

919
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:16,639
Do you think there's inherent
value in the friction

920
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:20,534
of not just the endless loop
where you have to go get a

921
00:37:20,534 --> 00:37:24,626
printed newspaper or even
click into the app versus just

922
00:37:24,626 --> 00:37:26,599
staying in your For You page?

923
00:37:27,980 --> 00:37:31,018
Or how does that amount of
friction stay relevant?

924
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,400
Well, I would hope
there's the friction.

925
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:38,719
It isn't really friction.

926
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,518
It's that, again, there
is room for those things.

927
00:37:41,518 --> 00:37:43,958
because I'm going to play
my Wordle, and then I'm

928
00:37:43,958 --> 00:37:45,297
going to read East of Eden.

929
00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:48,460
Sorry, easier one than Word
Piece, or what have you.

930
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:53,157
I mean, yeah, there's friction
there, but I think thoughtful

931
00:37:53,157 --> 00:37:54,458
people are trying to fight it.

932
00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:56,878
Like, I know I spend too
much time on my phone,

933
00:37:56,878 --> 00:38:00,342
so I put the timer on it, and
then I go read something,

934
00:38:00,342 --> 00:38:04,139
make sure that I'm focusing
my attention on hard,

935
00:38:04,139 --> 00:38:06,639
difficult, thoughtful things.

936
00:38:06,639 --> 00:38:08,559
Or at least I'm trying to be a
lot more conscious about it.

937
00:38:08,559 --> 00:38:09,760
I find myself falling into that.

938
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:10,760
I'm like, ooh, Jimothy.

939
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:14,599
But I should also be,
because he's so cute.

940
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:17,277
But also, I do.

941
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,639
I'm reading less hard
copy printed books.

942
00:38:20,639 --> 00:38:21,300
And that's wrong.

943
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:22,039
I need to.

944
00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:24,443
I need to sit and be
present in this book, not

945
00:38:24,443 --> 00:38:27,179
scrolling at things that
are moving all the time.

946
00:38:27,179 --> 00:38:31,659
I worry about what that does to
my brain on top of being old.

947
00:38:31,659 --> 00:38:32,440
I read a lot.

948
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,849
and I don't notice any
appreciable difference in

949
00:38:34,849 --> 00:38:37,260
how smart I am compared to
other people who don't.

950
00:38:37,260 --> 00:38:40,550
So that's- my son used
to read tons and tons of

951
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:43,577
books when he was a kid,
and now he's in his early

952
00:38:43,577 --> 00:38:45,918
20s and hardly ever
reads unless he has to.

953
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,931
But I don't really notice
that he's- like, I don't

954
00:38:48,931 --> 00:38:50,840
see the cognitive difference.

955
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,992
You know, though I'm
preaching how much important

956
00:38:52,992 --> 00:38:54,940
it is to be able to
concentrate and do all that,

957
00:38:54,940 --> 00:38:57,452
now that I really think about
it, I don't- maybe it's

958
00:38:57,452 --> 00:38:58,679
all a giant waste of time.

959
00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:00,719
You were able to tell us the
intro to War and Peace, though.

960
00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:03,900
So you are smarter
than everybody.

961
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:05,159
You know more.

962
00:39:05,159 --> 00:39:05,840
Maybe.

963
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,780
Well, you know, we
want curious readers.

964
00:39:09,780 --> 00:39:11,512
And I would argue that
there still are a decent

965
00:39:11,512 --> 00:39:12,559
amount of curious readers.

966
00:39:12,559 --> 00:39:15,739
You guys that are interested
in your political endorsements

967
00:39:15,739 --> 00:39:18,980
of both the Strangers and the
Seattle Times editorial boards.

968
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:21,730
And I'd even say people listen
to your podcast, at least I

969
00:39:21,730 --> 00:39:24,597
do, when you have different
elected officials on to hear on

970
00:39:24,597 --> 00:39:27,639
a specific issue what's going on
and what are they trying to do.

971
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:29,719
So maybe you guys can
pull back the layers.

972
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,224
You know, I don't actually know
how the Seattle Times editorial

973
00:39:32,224 --> 00:39:34,905
board or the Stranger, you
know, they are just names

974
00:39:34,905 --> 00:39:35,960
on a page to me.

975
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,125
Sometimes an image if you
really scroll down to

976
00:39:38,125 --> 00:39:39,179
see who's on the board.

977
00:39:39,179 --> 00:39:41,260
But you know, the process, what
are you guys looking for and

978
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:44,840
yeah, just pull back
the curtain on it.

979
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,731
There's like a, you make,
you call and say do not

980
00:39:46,731 --> 00:39:47,797
endorse Ron Davis, right?

981
00:39:47,797 --> 00:39:48,719
That's what happened.

982
00:39:50,139 --> 00:39:52,239
Is Ron, is Ron Davis here?

983
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:53,030
Is Ron here?

984
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:55,400
Because we all have
some questions.

985
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,360
I just want to see
if he's AI or not.

986
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:58,699
That's all.

987
00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:02,000
And I support him if he is.

988
00:40:04,018 --> 00:40:05,000
Bring him up.

989
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,099
Ron, come on up.

990
00:40:06,099 --> 00:40:07,500
I totally...

991
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:08,619
What was the question?

992
00:40:09,980 --> 00:40:12,579
Tell us a little bit more
about the editorial process.

993
00:40:12,579 --> 00:40:14,900
How does the political
endorsements work?

994
00:40:14,900 --> 00:40:16,987
And they have been
the kingmakers of

995
00:40:16,987 --> 00:40:18,239
Seattle for decades.

996
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,539
Yeah, it's totally different.

997
00:40:19,539 --> 00:40:23,179
I feel like the Blethen
can still veto it, right?

998
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,643
Frank Blethen has retired,
just news nugget, and Ryan

999
00:40:28,643 --> 00:40:30,780
Blethen is now our publisher.

1000
00:40:30,780 --> 00:40:31,900
I suppose he could.

1001
00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:33,960
He signs my check.

1002
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,219
He could burn the whole
place down if he does that.

1003
00:40:36,219 --> 00:40:38,322
He could say, he could lock
me out of my office and

1004
00:40:38,322 --> 00:40:39,480
say, you know, take a walk.

1005
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:43,960
But in this, I've been there in
this department for three years,

1006
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,159
and no publisher has done that.

1007
00:40:46,159 --> 00:40:48,179
And does he come to
the meetings at all?

1008
00:40:48,179 --> 00:40:49,599
Yes, Ryan does.

1009
00:40:49,599 --> 00:40:49,860
That's cool.

1010
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,139
He hasn't sick of us yet.

1011
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:55,938
So he still does.

1012
00:40:55,940 --> 00:40:59,018
And he went to almost all
of our Supreme Court,

1013
00:40:59,018 --> 00:41:01,000
seven hours, thank
you, of interviews,

1014
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,619
shameless plug, with
Supreme Court candidates

1015
00:41:03,619 --> 00:41:04,280
because they're important.

1016
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,659
Yeah, Ryan sat in on
pretty much all of those.

1017
00:41:07,659 --> 00:41:08,900
So he is on the board.

1018
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:11,360
He has a say for sure.

1019
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,860
And that's what, when
I was a publisher,

1020
00:41:14,860 --> 00:41:17,179
I sat in on it and I had a veto.

1021
00:41:17,179 --> 00:41:19,168
and so I could veto it
and so it was usually I

1022
00:41:19,168 --> 00:41:21,500
think I did it twice and
I can't actually remember

1023
00:41:21,500 --> 00:41:24,610
what but I think the
that leverage of it

1024
00:41:24,610 --> 00:41:27,719
but I felt like well first
of all I love doing it

1025
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:31,411
and I felt and I love
everything

1026
00:41:31,411 --> 00:41:35,199
I like ruining people's
days I like making their

1027
00:41:35,199 --> 00:41:39,753
days. But I just thought
that the whole process

1028
00:41:39,753 --> 00:41:44,539
is so great, especially
for young journalists to

1029
00:41:44,539 --> 00:41:47,304
like sit across the table
and hear everything that

1030
00:41:47,304 --> 00:41:48,358
people are saying.

1031
00:41:48,358 --> 00:41:49,938
And I also felt like this is my

1032
00:41:49,940 --> 00:41:52,349
own, you know, owner meddling.

1033
00:41:52,349 --> 00:41:55,409
Why I think owner
meddling is wonderful

1034
00:41:55,409 --> 00:41:58,661
is that it forced me to
really know what was going

1035
00:41:58,661 --> 00:41:59,523
on in the city.

1036
00:41:59,523 --> 00:42:01,320
It forced me to, or think I knew

1037
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,775
what was going on, to
actually meet people,

1038
00:42:03,775 --> 00:42:06,360
talk to people, hear the
staff and what their

1039
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:07,364
arguments were.

1040
00:42:07,364 --> 00:42:09,878
It was really educational
for me and I felt

1041
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,152
like it made me a
better publisher.

1042
00:42:12,152 --> 00:42:14,739
And if I felt like I
had no, nothing to say

1043
00:42:14,739 --> 00:42:16,780
about it, I wouldn't
go to the meetings.

1044
00:42:16,780 --> 00:42:18,960
Why would I waste my
time if I can't veto ?

1045
00:42:21,460 --> 00:42:22,420
I got to stop talking.

1046
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:27,922
So that's my little plug for
having an owner actually

1047
00:42:27,922 --> 00:42:31,239
having some skin in the
game on endorsements.

1048
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,306
Again, he has the right to
do that, but we also have

1049
00:42:35,306 --> 00:42:39,474
very, I hate this word,
but robust discussions in,

1050
00:42:39,474 --> 00:42:43,838
it sounds like a stake or
something, in our board, and

1051
00:42:43,838 --> 00:42:46,119
we bring each other around.

1052
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:49,054
There are some endorsements
that I don't agree with, and

1053
00:42:49,054 --> 00:42:51,802
I've thrown down a little
bit about it, but folks have

1054
00:42:51,802 --> 00:42:54,797
either talked me into, but I
don't have veto power either.

1055
00:42:54,797 --> 00:42:56,139
I'm just a menace.

1056
00:42:56,139 --> 00:42:58,626
So, you know, then we come
to agreement, and then

1057
00:42:58,626 --> 00:43:00,179
we're all friends afterward.

1058
00:43:00,179 --> 00:43:01,679
But, no, it's a
fascinating process.

1059
00:43:01,679 --> 00:43:02,179
I agree.

1060
00:43:02,179 --> 00:43:05,177
I mean, if everyone could
see what it's like to

1061
00:43:05,177 --> 00:43:08,648
interview candidates and
hear their answers and see

1062
00:43:08,648 --> 00:43:12,199
how they interact with
journalists, it would be wild.

1063
00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:15,079
And having that fight
shows a healthy news.

1064
00:43:15,079 --> 00:43:18,518
Like when the stranger,
everybody votes yes.

1065
00:43:18,518 --> 00:43:21,496
Or this one person you're
like okay we're there's

1066
00:43:21,496 --> 00:43:24,398
something wrong here if we
do that a lot then this

1067
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,063
sucks this isn't a very
good newspaper if we have

1068
00:43:27,063 --> 00:43:29,858
we don't have enough people
who really vehemently

1069
00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:31,679
disagree with each other
and that's like a sign

1070
00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:33,360
of the house so I'm glad
to hear that with the

1071
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,414
seattle times oh we do we've
uh well we're a fairly newish

1072
00:43:36,414 --> 00:43:40,547
board that we have right now it
turned over almost completely

1073
00:43:40,547 --> 00:43:42,159
in the past few years.

1074
00:43:42,159 --> 00:43:43,400
Would you like me on your board?

1075
00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:48,099
Sounds like that would be fun.

1076
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:51,179
But no, we do.

1077
00:43:51,179 --> 00:43:54,318
We have gone hammer and
tongs over a couple things.

1078
00:43:54,318 --> 00:43:57,159
These are important issues
that we believe strongly in,

1079
00:43:57,159 --> 00:43:59,260
and we think our readership
believes strongly in.

1080
00:43:59,260 --> 00:43:59,760
And you're right.

1081
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,887
If everyone thought
the same way, that's

1082
00:44:01,887 --> 00:44:03,139
boring and not healthy.

1083
00:44:03,139 --> 00:44:05,733
And if everyone fought
constantly, then

1084
00:44:05,733 --> 00:44:07,260
that's not good either.

1085
00:44:07,260 --> 00:44:10,536
So, yeah, I think we're reaching
a really happy medium with

1086
00:44:10,536 --> 00:44:12,804
we feel free to disagree,
and we do so in a

1087
00:44:12,804 --> 00:44:14,318
healthy, robust manner.

1088
00:44:14,318 --> 00:44:17,900
So the publisher doesn't
veto the Seattle Times?

1089
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:20,179
He has not in the three
years that I have worked

1090
00:44:20,179 --> 00:44:21,139
in the department.

1091
00:44:21,139 --> 00:44:23,574
I can't talk about the other
18 years because I worked

1092
00:44:23,574 --> 00:44:24,679
in another department.

1093
00:44:24,679 --> 00:44:26,920
Back in the age of the
high earners income

1094
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,239
tax ballot initiative.

1095
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,639
There absolutely could have been
some stamping going on there.

1096
00:44:31,639 --> 00:44:33,340
Which is the publisher's
prerogative.

1097
00:44:33,340 --> 00:44:34,420
It is his prerogative.

1098
00:44:34,420 --> 00:44:37,400
He who signs the
check has the veto.

1099
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:38,599
And who reads those
things anyway?

1100
00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:40,478
Oh, I guess a lot of
people read The Stranger.

1101
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,563
No, people read the, like,
if the Seattle Times and

1102
00:44:43,563 --> 00:44:46,719
The Stranger both endorse
you, you for sure move on.

1103
00:44:48,318 --> 00:44:49,458
Yep, totally.

1104
00:44:49,458 --> 00:44:52,460
And it's like, I think it's
like kind of like 50-50 between

1105
00:44:52,460 --> 00:44:53,900
the Times and the Stranger.

1106
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:56,713
Well, and there are people
who say, anyone the Times

1107
00:44:56,713 --> 00:44:59,199
recommends, I instantly
don't vote for them.

1108
00:44:59,199 --> 00:45:00,199
That's fine.

1109
00:45:00,199 --> 00:45:01,420
And then there are people.

1110
00:45:01,420 --> 00:45:02,518
And vice versa.

1111
00:45:02,518 --> 00:45:04,358
Yeah, yes, absolutely.

1112
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:05,277
And that's fine.

1113
00:45:05,277 --> 00:45:06,059
Just read.

1114
00:45:06,059 --> 00:45:08,239
It's like Siskel
and Ebert, right?

1115
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,411
You're like, that guy,
whatever he doesn't

1116
00:45:10,411 --> 00:45:11,619
like, I'm going to like.

1117
00:45:11,619 --> 00:45:12,219
I'm going to like.

1118
00:45:12,219 --> 00:45:15,699
I'll say at the ballot box, my
experience talking to voters is,

1119
00:45:15,699 --> 00:45:19,179
you know, there's such a range
of how well-informed folks are.

1120
00:45:19,179 --> 00:45:22,065
But there's many, many people
I've interviewed over the years,

1121
00:45:22,065 --> 00:45:24,677
and I would ask them, you know,
what their top issues were.

1122
00:45:24,679 --> 00:45:27,018
And it would be like, oh, man,
I'm really worried about crime.

1123
00:45:27,018 --> 00:45:28,699
I'm totally freaked out.

1124
00:45:28,699 --> 00:45:31,306
You know, and kind of going
down the list, public

1125
00:45:31,306 --> 00:45:32,739
safety, blah, blah, blah.

1126
00:45:32,739 --> 00:45:34,449
It's like, oh, God, you're
going to be voting for the

1127
00:45:34,449 --> 00:45:36,159
Seattle Times candidates,
thought bubble, right?

1128
00:45:36,159 --> 00:45:39,719
And it's like, no, no, I'm
voting straight stranger line.

1129
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,641
And it's just vibes like and
it's like you know like I

1130
00:45:43,641 --> 00:45:45,960
feel like I'm a stranger person

1131
00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:49,945
I bet we're gonna get a lot more
questions from the audience on

1132
00:45:49,945 --> 00:45:52,532
political endorsements so I'm
just gonna move on to one

1133
00:45:52,532 --> 00:45:55,610
last question and then
we'll do audience questions

1134
00:45:55,610 --> 00:45:58,128
um so what's one story or
a couple stories uh in

1135
00:45:58,128 --> 00:46:00,585
about seattle in seattle
or something that's on

1136
00:46:00,585 --> 00:46:03,704
your mind that you know our
local media community isn't

1137
00:46:03,704 --> 00:46:07,380
talking enough about, overlooks,
or maybe is simply afraid

1138
00:46:07,380 --> 00:46:08,797
to tell?

1139
00:46:08,797 --> 00:46:10,579
Maybe start with
David and then...

1140
00:46:10,579 --> 00:46:12,900
I'm gonna go third rail
on this because I don't

1141
00:46:12,900 --> 00:46:13,938
have a boss anymore.

1142
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:18,260
Trans girls in sports, I
would say, is a tough issue.

1143
00:46:18,260 --> 00:46:22,710
I think the coverage has been
good in many ways, great on

1144
00:46:22,710 --> 00:46:27,161
the politics, great on the
legal fights, really good on

1145
00:46:27,161 --> 00:46:32,094
these sort of intrusive medical
exams, probably less good on

1146
00:46:32,094 --> 00:46:36,739
the questions of sort of the
science of competitiveness.

1147
00:46:36,739 --> 00:46:38,516
And I was talking to my
spouse about this, who

1148
00:46:38,516 --> 00:46:39,619
was a competitive swimmer.

1149
00:46:39,619 --> 00:46:42,697
Like, she was third ranked
in the nation for her

1150
00:46:42,697 --> 00:46:45,539
events when she was,
like, up to age 12 or 13.

1151
00:46:45,539 --> 00:46:49,958
And she was on a co-ed team in
the sense that they trained,

1152
00:46:49,958 --> 00:46:52,277
this is in New York, but
they trained together,

1153
00:46:52,277 --> 00:46:53,960
boys and girls, you
know, in the pool.

1154
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:55,139
So she was always
in the fast lane

1155
00:46:55,139 --> 00:46:57,338
and she was the fastest
swimmer on her team

1156
00:46:57,338 --> 00:47:00,199
up until the age of 12 or
13, at which point just

1157
00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:02,559
like, she said it was
totally demoralizing.

1158
00:47:02,559 --> 00:47:05,478
The boys just started killing
her at that age or whatever

1159
00:47:05,478 --> 00:47:07,900
due to adolescence
and testosterone.

1160
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:10,239
So I just feel like on
both sides of that,

1161
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:11,539
there are interesting
questions I have,

1162
00:47:11,539 --> 00:47:14,594
Like, what would sports
medicine scientists say

1163
00:47:14,594 --> 00:47:16,159
about that issue, right?

1164
00:47:16,159 --> 00:47:19,831
Like, you know, and is this
ballot measure, if it passes,

1165
00:47:19,831 --> 00:47:23,659
which it's hard to say if it's
going to pass or not, you know,

1166
00:47:23,659 --> 00:47:27,331
but like, is it is it painting
with too broad a brush in the

1167
00:47:27,331 --> 00:47:31,239
sense that why are like, she was
faster than all the boys when

1168
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,036
she was a girl, a young girl.

1169
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:37,255
So, you know, is it is it I'm
trying to think about what the

1170
00:47:37,255 --> 00:47:39,318
exact question I have here.

1171
00:47:39,318 --> 00:47:41,297
But, you know, so it kind
of cuts both ways is what

1172
00:47:41,297 --> 00:47:42,239
I'm sort of getting at.

1173
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,161
And I think we shouldn't
be afraid of doing

1174
00:47:44,161 --> 00:47:45,260
those kinds of stories.

1175
00:47:45,260 --> 00:47:49,101
And I wonder if at the Seattle
Times and elsewhere, people are

1176
00:47:49,101 --> 00:47:52,715
a little bit afraid to do that
kind of a story because of the

1177
00:47:52,715 --> 00:47:54,599
pushback that they might get.

1178
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:56,509
You know, so, yeah, that's one
of the questions that I have

1179
00:47:56,509 --> 00:47:58,420
in terms of, you know, what
I've seen in terms of coverage.

1180
00:47:59,539 --> 00:48:00,719
It is a hard issue.

1181
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,501
It's hard for people to talk
about on a medical, scientific,

1182
00:48:05,501 --> 00:48:09,518
you know, what have you,
clinical, I guess, level.

1183
00:48:09,518 --> 00:48:14,699
There are even doctors who
have proposed pieces and

1184
00:48:14,699 --> 00:48:19,878
then rescinded and decided
that they did not want to

1185
00:48:19,878 --> 00:48:25,179
explore that, you know, in
an op-ed, which is too bad.

1186
00:48:25,179 --> 00:48:25,719
But it is.

1187
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:26,539
It's really hard.

1188
00:48:27,918 --> 00:48:32,139
You know, we ran the op-eds
pro-con on the initiative 638,

1189
00:48:33,378 --> 00:48:38,059
and wading through the comments
was really unpleasant.

1190
00:48:38,059 --> 00:48:44,085
And people are letting, again,
misinformation and really

1191
00:48:44,085 --> 00:48:47,039
high emotions kind of cloud.

1192
00:48:47,039 --> 00:48:49,619
There just really wasn't
much productive in there.

1193
00:48:49,619 --> 00:48:52,639
It was always, you're a
transphobe because X,

1194
00:48:52,639 --> 00:48:56,884
or it's not okay for
men are going to be in

1195
00:48:56,884 --> 00:48:59,199
girls' locker rooms.

1196
00:48:59,199 --> 00:49:00,958
It came down to
those two things.

1197
00:49:00,958 --> 00:49:04,458
And it's like, where is the
thing where people sit down

1198
00:49:04,458 --> 00:49:06,818
and ask questions
and find answers?

1199
00:49:06,818 --> 00:49:08,797
My question about this,
I feel like there's

1200
00:49:08,797 --> 00:49:10,719
a ton of coverage of
opinion on that issue,

1201
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:12,876
but I really don't
care that much what

1202
00:49:12,876 --> 00:49:14,199
Brandy Cruz has to say.

1203
00:49:14,199 --> 00:49:15,978
It doesn't interest
me that much.

1204
00:49:15,978 --> 00:49:17,887
And I want to know what,
you know, and I'm sure

1205
00:49:17,887 --> 00:49:20,259
there's debates about these
things within the fields.

1206
00:49:20,259 --> 00:49:21,699
I want to hear what
those debates are.

1207
00:49:21,699 --> 00:49:23,518
And I don't understand why
we would shy away from that.

1208
00:49:23,518 --> 00:49:25,382
I mean, I do understand
why we would shy away

1209
00:49:25,382 --> 00:49:26,418
from that potentially.

1210
00:49:26,418 --> 00:49:28,902
But I wish that we wouldn't
because I feel like we could

1211
00:49:28,902 --> 00:49:30,338
have these kinds of dialogues.

1212
00:49:30,338 --> 00:49:32,708
We need to open up windows
and have these kinds

1213
00:49:32,708 --> 00:49:35,139
of conversations, even
if they're difficult.

1214
00:49:35,139 --> 00:49:36,639
Yeah, I think that's
really interesting.

1215
00:49:36,639 --> 00:49:40,264
Like, I think in general, like,
in general answer to that

1216
00:49:40,264 --> 00:49:43,503
is the stuff that reporters
are just like, I don't,

1217
00:49:43,503 --> 00:49:45,199
or opinion people either.

1218
00:49:45,199 --> 00:49:47,039
Like, I just don't want
to write about it.

1219
00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:49,159
Like, it's just,
it's not worth it.

1220
00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:52,179
It's not worth having all of
my social media blown up.

1221
00:49:52,179 --> 00:49:56,000
And even do, you know, like,
you know, the trans issue is

1222
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,159
one, homelessness is another.

1223
00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:02,469
It's just when you cover
it and if you cover it in

1224
00:50:02,469 --> 00:50:06,998
like a, you know, a very,
what the experts say here

1225
00:50:06,998 --> 00:50:09,826
and that and where the money
goes, all that kind of

1226
00:50:09,826 --> 00:50:12,860
stuff, it gets really, just
nobody's happy with you.

1227
00:50:12,860 --> 00:50:14,119
You know, there's no.

1228
00:50:14,119 --> 00:50:16,438
Even if you're meticulous
in your reporting.

1229
00:50:16,438 --> 00:50:18,938
There's no upside to it, right?

1230
00:50:18,938 --> 00:50:22,469
Right, that's where you come
into the misinformation

1231
00:50:22,469 --> 00:50:25,842
crowds out or the hatred or
the hysteria or whatever

1232
00:50:25,842 --> 00:50:29,137
crowds out the good
information that's out there.

1233
00:50:29,139 --> 00:50:30,998
And it's not worth it.

1234
00:50:30,998 --> 00:50:32,838
And what's it going to solve?

1235
00:50:32,838 --> 00:50:36,400
If you write a story or an
op-ed or whatever, are you

1236
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,219
going to make sure that
everybody gets what they want,

1237
00:50:40,219 --> 00:50:42,000
whatever it is they want?

1238
00:50:43,219 --> 00:50:45,777
No, you're just going to
get a bunch of mad people.

1239
00:50:45,777 --> 00:50:48,759
And is that healthy?

1240
00:50:48,759 --> 00:50:49,719
Sometimes we want that.

1241
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,114
But, yeah, there's other
things we could be doing

1242
00:50:52,114 --> 00:50:54,570
or writing about or what
have you that people could

1243
00:50:54,570 --> 00:50:55,739
apply their talents to.

1244
00:50:55,739 --> 00:50:56,318
But I agree.

1245
00:50:56,318 --> 00:50:59,860
It's a really hard issue
for publications and

1246
00:50:59,860 --> 00:51:01,818
commenters of all sizes.

1247
00:51:01,818 --> 00:51:05,530
The Times had an article about
fentanyl and just the economics

1248
00:51:05,530 --> 00:51:07,099
of fentanyl on the street.

1249
00:51:07,099 --> 00:51:12,139
And they tested each pill
to see the strength of it.

1250
00:51:12,139 --> 00:51:15,411
They went all down the line,
up and down through the

1251
00:51:15,411 --> 00:51:17,358
supply and demand chain of it.

1252
00:51:17,358 --> 00:51:19,510
And it was really, it was
a Sunday piece, I don't

1253
00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:20,559
know, about a year ago.

1254
00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:22,139
And I loved it.

1255
00:51:22,139 --> 00:51:25,498
I really want to get those
kind of pieces that are

1256
00:51:25,498 --> 00:51:27,177
just put a lot of effort.

1257
00:51:27,179 --> 00:51:28,159
I just want the numbers.

1258
00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:29,759
I want to see.

1259
00:51:29,759 --> 00:51:32,179
There's so much opinion.

1260
00:51:32,179 --> 00:51:35,239
And it's a fire hose of opinion
that sometimes you're just like,

1261
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:36,099
that piece was great.

1262
00:51:36,099 --> 00:51:38,860
I know there's a bunch
of politics around it.

1263
00:51:38,860 --> 00:51:41,539
For all of my life,
I've just thought all

1264
00:51:41,539 --> 00:51:46,018
drugs should be legal and my
mind has changed on that.

1265
00:51:46,018 --> 00:51:47,478
Which one should be legal then?

1266
00:51:47,478 --> 00:51:47,759
What's that?

1267
00:51:48,759 --> 00:51:50,639
All of the drugs
that I enjoy doing.

1268
00:51:55,199 --> 00:51:58,478
And now that I don't
drink, booze illegal.

1269
00:51:59,858 --> 00:52:03,322
-- Bring back the Prohibition
-- wait a minute cold dead

1270
00:52:03,322 --> 00:52:06,518
fingers here -- but I just
I want more of that in

1271
00:52:06,518 --> 00:52:10,184
like a like a publication like
the times or the new york times

1272
00:52:10,184 --> 00:52:13,775
can do these robust there it
is robotussin uh uh things

1273
00:52:13,775 --> 00:52:17,025
that I and I and I just
feel like but they're so

1274
00:52:17,025 --> 00:52:19,876
hard to do and I don't
know if that got a bunch

1275
00:52:19,876 --> 00:52:22,373
of clicks or if it was
worth it, but man, was

1276
00:52:22,373 --> 00:52:22,945
it great?

1277
00:52:22,945 --> 00:52:25,139
And I talked about
it forever because,

1278
00:52:25,139 --> 00:52:27,561
you know, it's just
like, oh, that's, if you

1279
00:52:27,561 --> 00:52:30,280
take 15 of those pills, it
averages out because some of

1280
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,722
them are super strong and
some of them are super weak.

1281
00:52:32,722 --> 00:52:34,275
And so when people who don't do

1282
00:52:34,275 --> 00:52:36,635
fentanyl just take one
and they've never had

1283
00:52:36,635 --> 00:52:39,304
that experience, they can
get a pill that's worth

1284
00:52:39,304 --> 00:52:41,302
like six times
stronger and they OD.

1285
00:52:41,302 --> 00:52:43,297
It's like, oh, that's
why, you know,

1286
00:52:43,297 --> 00:52:45,797
But it's just like here,
I'd like to hear more.

1287
00:52:45,797 --> 00:52:48,159
That kind of stuff is just,
it feels like there's

1288
00:52:48,159 --> 00:52:49,338
little appetite for it.

1289
00:52:50,679 --> 00:52:51,938
People like data.

1290
00:52:51,938 --> 00:52:55,360
I like to tell, when I give
talks to other outside

1291
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,777
groups about op-eds,
I like to say we have

1292
00:52:57,777 --> 00:52:58,818
smarty pants readers.

1293
00:52:58,818 --> 00:53:01,275
You know, we have lots of
scientists and professors

1294
00:53:01,275 --> 00:53:02,418
and retired engineers.

1295
00:53:02,418 --> 00:53:05,518
And I think people
are hungry for data.

1296
00:53:05,518 --> 00:53:06,998
These are the numbers.

1297
00:53:06,998 --> 00:53:08,297
Think what you want.

1298
00:53:08,297 --> 00:53:09,539
Believe in them or not.

1299
00:53:09,539 --> 00:53:10,159
Science is real.

1300
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:13,635
You know the numbers are there
I think there is an appetite

1301
00:53:13,635 --> 00:53:16,679
for it and I wish we had I wish
newspapers could be better

1302
00:53:16,679 --> 00:53:19,739
staffed those are really you
know as you know labor intensive

1303
00:53:19,739 --> 00:53:24,077
yeah but it wasn't pieces what's
that remote you have the data

1304
00:53:24,077 --> 00:53:27,387
guy you haven't had gene
balk we do gene balk fyi guy

1305
00:53:27,387 --> 00:53:29,925
yep but not just the
data I like that there's

1306
00:53:29,925 --> 00:53:32,918
interviews they talk to people
They talked to people who

1307
00:53:32,918 --> 00:53:35,289
were breaking into cars,
why they weren't, how much

1308
00:53:35,289 --> 00:53:36,338
do they actually need.

1309
00:53:36,338 --> 00:53:38,438
It was a data thing,
but it was also.

1310
00:53:38,438 --> 00:53:39,878
A human thing.

1311
00:53:39,878 --> 00:53:44,518
But, yeah, that takes a ton of
people and editing and time.

1312
00:53:44,518 --> 00:53:45,458
Man, it's great, though.

1313
00:53:45,458 --> 00:53:47,199
But, well, then it's worth it.

1314
00:53:47,199 --> 00:53:49,717
If somebody read it and
really learned from it,

1315
00:53:49,717 --> 00:53:50,878
then that's worth it.

1316
00:53:50,878 --> 00:53:54,619
I think something that the city
does not cover enough is arts.

1317
00:53:54,619 --> 00:53:57,666
and I say this as a former
arts editor, but you

1318
00:53:57,666 --> 00:54:00,878
know, we, we have a, we
have reporters who cover

1319
00:54:00,878 --> 00:54:03,672
the arts and the economy
arts recovering from

1320
00:54:03,672 --> 00:54:06,757
COVID that's important
because COVID just was so,

1321
00:54:06,759 --> 00:54:10,132
so, so harmful to our
arts, but we have an arts

1322
00:54:10,132 --> 00:54:13,960
ecosystem here that we're
not covering the people

1323
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,822
who are making the art
we're not reviewing the

1324
00:54:16,822 --> 00:54:19,601
art exhibitions that tell
you what you should go

1325
00:54:19,601 --> 00:54:22,159
see why you should go see
them if they're not worth

1326
00:54:22,159 --> 00:54:25,210
seeing why is that who
are who's a person to

1327
00:54:25,210 --> 00:54:27,927
watch whose person not to
what's going on at the

1328
00:54:27,927 --> 00:54:30,199
symphony what's going on at
the Opera what's going on at

1329
00:54:30,199 --> 00:54:33,438
Vermilion Gallery you know
there's all this stuff and

1330
00:54:33,438 --> 00:54:36,090
all these angles and all
these things, and it's a

1331
00:54:36,090 --> 00:54:38,445
very valuable part of the
city, and it's just been

1332
00:54:38,445 --> 00:54:39,498
kicked to the curb.

1333
00:54:39,498 --> 00:54:40,259
I totally agree.

1334
00:54:40,259 --> 00:54:44,719
And also, I didn't catch
you out there, did I?

1335
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:45,297
No, no, you did not.

1336
00:54:46,579 --> 00:54:49,318
Also, how to approach
the art, right?

1337
00:54:49,318 --> 00:54:53,974
I'm super old, so Pauline Kael,
like I learned how to watch

1338
00:54:53,974 --> 00:54:56,059
movies because of her, right?

1339
00:54:56,059 --> 00:55:00,338
And there was this moment where
you would read movie reviews,

1340
00:55:00,338 --> 00:55:03,059
and that's how you
discovered the movie, right?

1341
00:55:03,059 --> 00:55:05,277
Now you read the
movie review after,

1342
00:55:05,277 --> 00:55:07,659
if you read a movie review,
after you read it, right?

1343
00:55:07,659 --> 00:55:09,699
But it was like part
of the discovery of it

1344
00:55:09,699 --> 00:55:12,139
was understanding it and
there was a discussion

1345
00:55:12,139 --> 00:55:14,918
about Dog Day Afternoon
or whatever, right?

1346
00:55:14,918 --> 00:55:15,978
Such a great movie.

1347
00:55:15,978 --> 00:55:19,032
But you go into it a little,
at the place where you

1348
00:55:19,032 --> 00:55:21,335
start to find things
out, you're already

1349
00:55:21,335 --> 00:55:24,253
dealing with ideas and
that's why there's this

1350
00:55:24,253 --> 00:55:25,918
amazing time of movies.

1351
00:55:25,918 --> 00:55:29,105
And actually though, I
think now is an interesting

1352
00:55:29,105 --> 00:55:33,838
time for movies, but it is very
based on a different medium

1353
00:55:33,838 --> 00:55:37,878
and a different temperament
of how you go into it.

1354
00:55:37,878 --> 00:55:41,398
It's more experiential
on its face.

1355
00:55:41,398 --> 00:55:44,501
But the more you look at
it, the more you learn to

1356
00:55:44,501 --> 00:55:48,239
appreciate it, and you develop,
hey, I like landscapes.

1357
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:49,277
I like still lifes.

1358
00:55:49,277 --> 00:55:50,358
I like portraits.

1359
00:55:50,358 --> 00:55:52,478
I like post-impressionism.

1360
00:55:52,478 --> 00:55:53,719
I like collage.

1361
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:55,458
I like performance art.

1362
00:55:55,458 --> 00:55:57,559
You don't know that
you like those things

1363
00:55:57,559 --> 00:56:00,777
until you go out and see
them or someone tells you.

1364
00:56:00,777 --> 00:56:02,938
There's this great
performance art thing

1365
00:56:02,938 --> 00:56:05,099
going on on the
side of a building.

1366
00:56:05,099 --> 00:56:08,498
Like the, who are the Japanese?

1367
00:56:08,498 --> 00:56:09,858
The really slow Butoh.

1368
00:56:09,858 --> 00:56:11,818
There's a Butoh thing going on
on the side of the building.

1369
00:56:11,818 --> 00:56:13,539
You should go see it.

1370
00:56:13,539 --> 00:56:15,259
How do you know to
go see those things

1371
00:56:15,259 --> 00:56:16,958
because it's not being covered?

1372
00:56:16,958 --> 00:56:18,539
If you don't watch Butoh.

1373
00:56:18,539 --> 00:56:20,498
I'm sorry, no, KUOW
had Marcie Sillman

1374
00:56:20,498 --> 00:56:22,219
for years and years.

1375
00:56:22,219 --> 00:56:25,039
She has a blog, I think it's
called And Another Thing.

1376
00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:26,018
It's more of a...

1377
00:56:26,018 --> 00:56:27,518
She's still doing some
arts coverage there,

1378
00:56:27,518 --> 00:56:30,838
but she did highbrow art.

1379
00:56:31,918 --> 00:56:33,539
Well, she was a presence.

1380
00:56:33,539 --> 00:56:34,418
Yeah, absolutely.

1381
00:56:34,418 --> 00:56:35,938
You heard her all the
time, and now you don't.

1382
00:56:35,938 --> 00:56:38,639
I'm not sure why, but yeah,
that has not been replaced.

1383
00:56:38,639 --> 00:56:39,619
It hasn't anywhere.

1384
00:56:41,699 --> 00:56:43,539
Well, there's
another opportunity.

1385
00:56:43,539 --> 00:56:47,239
The Stranger and Jen Graves, we
had a full-time arts editor,

1386
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:49,958
a full-time theater editor,
a full-time music editor.

1387
00:56:49,958 --> 00:56:52,018
It's just hard to do
in this economic.

1388
00:56:52,018 --> 00:56:54,389
But boy, is it luxurious
and wonderful to have

1389
00:56:54,389 --> 00:56:55,699
somebody like Jen Gertz.

1390
00:56:55,699 --> 00:56:57,958
And that's why you picked
up The Stranger, really.

1391
00:56:57,958 --> 00:56:59,559
I mean, you didn't
want to read Sandeep.

1392
00:56:59,559 --> 00:57:00,539
You wanted to read that stuff.

1393
00:57:03,018 --> 00:57:05,503
Well, I'm a movie past
member, so I'm all for movie

1394
00:57:05,503 --> 00:57:06,958
critics at the Times as well.

1395
00:57:06,958 --> 00:57:07,998
You're a savage, man.

1396
00:57:07,998 --> 00:57:08,719
I'm just saying.

1397
00:57:10,438 --> 00:57:11,958
Right? Yeah, okay.

1398
00:57:11,958 --> 00:57:13,628
All right, I think we're
going to shift to some

1399
00:57:13,628 --> 00:57:14,420
audience questions.

1400
00:57:14,420 --> 00:57:16,565
Thank you all for
being here tonight.

1401
00:57:16,565 --> 00:57:19,059
This has been really,
really fascinating.

1402
00:57:19,059 --> 00:57:21,585
So I really like where you're
talking about the arts and

1403
00:57:21,585 --> 00:57:24,277
culture, because I've been in
some of those spaces myself,

1404
00:57:24,277 --> 00:57:27,655
and I agree that there's, I
think there's a market to

1405
00:57:27,655 --> 00:57:31,579
be captured here because of
Seattle's rich history in music

1406
00:57:31,579 --> 00:57:33,699
in particular, but also all art.

1407
00:57:33,699 --> 00:57:37,202
Is there a way for, because
there's such a cousin

1408
00:57:37,202 --> 00:57:41,231
relationship between literacy
and interest and entry

1409
00:57:41,231 --> 00:57:43,159
and learning and the arts.

1410
00:57:43,159 --> 00:57:44,759
They go hand in hand, right?

1411
00:57:44,759 --> 00:57:45,898
They're a real experience.

1412
00:57:45,898 --> 00:57:47,478
To your point, they
have to be there.

1413
00:57:47,478 --> 00:57:48,498
So how do you partner?

1414
00:57:48,498 --> 00:57:51,601
How do we create a
partnership between arts

1415
00:57:51,601 --> 00:57:55,480
and culture and media in a
way that's more compelling?

1416
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,878
Because I think you're starting
to talk about a business model.

1417
00:57:57,878 --> 00:57:59,699
Did it exist?

1418
00:57:59,699 --> 00:58:03,260
I think she was asking, is there
a market for curious readers in

1419
00:58:03,260 --> 00:58:07,498
the arts, media, entertainment,
to have journalism about it?

1420
00:58:07,498 --> 00:58:08,759
Seattle's hard, right?

1421
00:58:08,759 --> 00:58:11,018
And I definitely think
there is a thing.

1422
00:58:11,018 --> 00:58:13,327
But one of the things
that I felt when I first

1423
00:58:13,327 --> 00:58:15,699
moved to Seattle, when
Seattle was a smaller

1424
00:58:15,699 --> 00:58:18,619
town, was everybody was like,
oh, you guys work so hard.

1425
00:58:18,619 --> 00:58:19,739
Great job.

1426
00:58:19,739 --> 00:58:21,199
You did a play.

1427
00:58:21,199 --> 00:58:24,099
and when Dan Savage
was our theater critic

1428
00:58:24,099 --> 00:58:25,699
in the very beginning
of The Stranger

1429
00:58:25,699 --> 00:58:27,259
and he was incredibly mean

1430
00:58:28,318 --> 00:58:32,418
but it wasn't mean to be
mean but he was really mean

1431
00:58:32,418 --> 00:58:36,018
and people were hurt by it
but it made it riveting

1432
00:58:36,018 --> 00:58:36,559
and it made like

1433
00:58:37,579 --> 00:58:41,159
I'm taking you seriously and
I think one of the things

1434
00:58:41,159 --> 00:58:43,277
whenever there's
like arts groups

1435
00:58:43,277 --> 00:58:46,239
and arts culture and
the media work together

1436
00:58:46,239 --> 00:58:48,672
to try to figure it
out it takes a little

1437
00:58:48,672 --> 00:58:51,938
of the meanness away and
it takes, everybody wants

1438
00:58:51,938 --> 00:58:53,938
more of a pat on the back
and it makes it less

1439
00:58:53,938 --> 00:58:55,018
interesting to read.

1440
00:58:55,018 --> 00:58:56,918
But I do think that
there's, I think that the

1441
00:58:56,918 --> 00:58:58,800
stranger should, and
the stranger has been

1442
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:00,699
doing a lot more arts and
I think they will and I

1443
00:59:01,878 --> 00:59:03,746
think that's a
natural home for it.

1444
00:59:03,746 --> 00:59:04,974
But there just needs to

1445
00:59:04,974 --> 00:59:05,684
be more of it.

1446
00:59:05,684 --> 00:59:07,197
But you know, my daughter's

1447
00:59:07,197 --> 00:59:09,918
a theater person and we
have newspapers around

1448
00:59:09,918 --> 00:59:13,159
the house everywhere and she
never reads reviews in the

1449
00:59:13,159 --> 00:59:16,199
news in the newspaper
of plays you know

1450
00:59:16,199 --> 00:59:19,318
watches youtube stuff
of it she goes to a lot

1451
00:59:19,318 --> 00:59:22,338
of plays she does but she
does not read reviews

1452
00:59:22,338 --> 00:59:25,197
of it though it's her
whole life and uh and so

1453
00:59:25,199 --> 00:59:27,862
and she's been buried in
newspaper her whole you

1454
00:59:27,862 --> 00:59:30,259
know my wife's family
did a newspaper out of

1455
00:59:30,259 --> 00:59:32,952
every there's newspapers
galore in our house and

1456
00:59:32,952 --> 00:59:35,579
she's super smart
and thoughtful but

1457
00:59:35,579 --> 00:59:37,498
She does not read reviews.

1458
00:59:37,498 --> 00:59:38,759
I don't know.

1459
00:59:38,759 --> 00:59:41,858
I send my kids
stuff all the time,

1460
00:59:41,858 --> 00:59:44,438
just like my mom used to send
little clippings of stuff.

1461
00:59:44,438 --> 00:59:46,139
And in my dorm room,
I'd get an envelope

1462
00:59:46,139 --> 00:59:48,539
with different clippings
from Newsweek.

1463
00:59:49,759 --> 00:59:52,817
But I think why is
because they're just not

1464
00:59:52,817 --> 00:59:54,739
interested in the medium.

1465
00:59:54,739 --> 00:59:59,378
I think that's, they get a
link from the New York Times,

1466
00:59:59,378 --> 01:00:02,079
and Ruben and Mira are
just not reading it.

1467
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:05,318
But if there's a YouTube link,
there's a much higher chance.

1468
01:00:05,318 --> 01:00:06,838
And also, it's the sender, too.

1469
01:00:06,838 --> 01:00:08,179
I'm sending it, so
they're like...

1470
01:00:09,539 --> 01:00:12,045
Maybe the message is still
relevant, but maybe the

1471
01:00:12,045 --> 01:00:13,358
media, that they get it in.

1472
01:00:13,358 --> 01:00:14,199
Like, they find it on YouTube.

1473
01:00:15,219 --> 01:00:17,398
Do you guys have anything
else you want to add?

1474
01:00:17,398 --> 01:00:18,898
Well, it costs money.

1475
01:00:18,898 --> 01:00:20,898
I mean, I think reviewing
is really important.

1476
01:00:20,898 --> 01:00:23,141
It's a part of the
ecosystem that teaches

1477
01:00:23,141 --> 01:00:26,672
people to think critically
and also can give people

1478
01:00:26,672 --> 01:00:30,099
who normally wouldn't
be noticed a boost

1479
01:00:30,099 --> 01:00:31,679
and also call out stuff.

1480
01:00:33,259 --> 01:00:35,139
Sometimes you've got to
call it is what it is.

1481
01:00:36,539 --> 01:00:39,978
But to review, especially
live performance,

1482
01:00:39,978 --> 01:00:43,958
you've got to stand up the
tickets for all of those things.

1483
01:00:43,958 --> 01:00:45,418
You've got to send
people all over.

1484
01:00:45,418 --> 01:00:46,498
It's gas and miles.

1485
01:00:46,498 --> 01:00:48,536
If you want them to see
somebody who's gone to

1486
01:00:48,536 --> 01:00:50,492
Broadway or something,
say you've got to pay for

1487
01:00:50,492 --> 01:00:51,259
them to go to New York.

1488
01:00:51,259 --> 01:00:55,139
I mean, it's a very
funding-intensive model.

1489
01:00:55,139 --> 01:00:56,498
Grants are fantastic.

1490
01:00:56,498 --> 01:01:01,438
We've had several at the Times
to fund music and arts coverage.

1491
01:01:01,438 --> 01:01:03,985
If there were more of
that, maybe Jeff Bezos

1492
01:01:03,985 --> 01:01:07,291
could go to Venice less,
and maybe, or Elon Musk

1493
01:01:07,291 --> 01:01:10,980
could give some money to
that kind of a thing.

1494
01:01:10,980 --> 01:01:11,958
Maybe we could have that.

1495
01:01:13,079 --> 01:01:14,297
It would be wonderful to have.

1496
01:01:14,297 --> 01:01:17,416
So my question is, how
do we change, what are

1497
01:01:17,416 --> 01:01:21,052
your ideas about how we
change the trajectory that

1498
01:01:21,052 --> 01:01:22,958
we've been talking about?

1499
01:01:22,958 --> 01:01:27,849
It seems like a lot of times
we're trying to put a brake

1500
01:01:27,849 --> 01:01:30,737
on the change towards decline.

1501
01:01:30,739 --> 01:01:33,927
I mean, Yuval Harari talks
about it as sapiens,

1502
01:01:33,927 --> 01:01:37,360
like we've been on this
trajectory for a long time.

1503
01:01:38,918 --> 01:01:41,239
American capitalism accelerated.

1504
01:01:41,239 --> 01:01:43,018
You mentioned your son, Tim.

1505
01:01:44,759 --> 01:01:45,498
What was it?

1506
01:01:46,679 --> 01:01:49,398
I don't remember the
specifics, but...

1507
01:01:49,398 --> 01:01:49,958
Oh, I know.

1508
01:01:49,958 --> 01:01:51,398
You said he's not
getting any less smart.

1509
01:01:51,398 --> 01:01:52,940
Well, I think part
of the problem is

1510
01:01:52,940 --> 01:01:57,239
our metrics are scaled on
too short a time trajectory.

1511
01:01:57,239 --> 01:02:01,458
It doesn't seem like your
son's getting less smart.

1512
01:02:01,458 --> 01:02:03,159
What about your grandkids?

1513
01:02:04,378 --> 01:02:08,715
So how do we change the
trajectory, not trying

1514
01:02:08,715 --> 01:02:12,936
to just slow, you know,
like when we shift to a

1515
01:02:12,936 --> 01:02:18,414
public health approach in
healthcare versus individual

1516
01:02:18,414 --> 01:02:21,039
care that show big results.

1517
01:02:21,039 --> 01:02:24,199
It's like a different business
model, somebody talked about.

1518
01:02:24,199 --> 01:02:30,199
What are your ideas about rather
just slowing the decline, a

1519
01:02:30,199 --> 01:02:33,559
change that would excite people?

1520
01:02:33,559 --> 01:02:37,250
It takes risk to -- So
he's asking, how do

1521
01:02:37,250 --> 01:02:38,338
we support the change?

1522
01:02:38,338 --> 01:02:41,449
And maybe the metrics that
we use aren't exactly the

1523
01:02:41,449 --> 01:02:43,257
right metrics for the moment.

1524
01:02:44,797 --> 01:02:48,947
I'm asking about an idea to
change the trajectory rather

1525
01:02:48,947 --> 01:02:50,978
than just slow the decline.

1526
01:02:50,978 --> 01:02:53,119
I didn't diss young people
earlier, I just want to say.

1527
01:02:54,858 --> 01:02:57,918
I think young people want
analog in-person events.

1528
01:02:57,918 --> 01:02:59,119
So I'm back to my events idea.

1529
01:02:59,119 --> 01:03:00,936
but I do think that that's
something that people

1530
01:03:00,936 --> 01:03:03,547
have a real craving for
because we're just sick

1531
01:03:03,547 --> 01:03:06,958
of the digital world that
is rotting our brains

1532
01:03:06,958 --> 01:03:08,556
and we want to get out
there and experience

1533
01:03:08,556 --> 01:03:09,697
something with other humans.

1534
01:03:09,699 --> 01:03:12,179
And so I think that's one
way that media can grow,

1535
01:03:12,179 --> 01:03:14,659
especially if people
aren't reading as much.

1536
01:03:14,659 --> 01:03:17,518
Maybe it's going to be the
return of the spoken word.

1537
01:03:17,518 --> 01:03:19,259
IRL is back in style.

1538
01:03:21,259 --> 01:03:21,998
Not an IRL.

1539
01:03:24,018 --> 01:03:24,378
What does that mean?

1540
01:03:26,918 --> 01:03:28,284
Any other thoughts?

1541
01:03:28,284 --> 01:03:30,291
We can go to another question.

1542
01:03:30,291 --> 01:03:31,737
We have a lot of hands.

1543
01:03:31,737 --> 01:03:33,505
Yeah. It's kind of
a quick two-part

1544
01:03:33,505 --> 01:03:36,065
question. First, for the
Seattle Times, have you guys

1545
01:03:36,065 --> 01:03:38,737
considered dropping the pay
gate on your endorsements?

1546
01:03:38,739 --> 01:03:41,416
Because I feel like it's really
easy to access the strangers'

1547
01:03:41,416 --> 01:03:43,777
endorsements, but maybe a
little harder to access...

1548
01:03:43,777 --> 01:03:44,777
Can you keep it down?

1549
01:03:47,858 --> 01:03:48,398
Just kidding.

1550
01:03:48,398 --> 01:03:49,978
I think the top
process behind that,

1551
01:03:49,978 --> 01:03:52,478
and then maybe a part two
for the other two sides,

1552
01:03:52,478 --> 01:03:54,748
is it's kind of the canary,
or the thing that a lot

1553
01:03:54,748 --> 01:03:56,190
of people don't know,
is that we're the only

1554
01:03:56,190 --> 01:03:58,719
state in the country where
you're not allowed to

1555
01:03:58,719 --> 01:04:02,079
run ads on political speech,
kind of a weird, wonky thing.

1556
01:04:02,079 --> 01:04:04,958
But if Adam Smith wrote
an op-ed in the Times

1557
01:04:04,958 --> 01:04:07,829
about his opinions on
politics, the Times couldn't

1558
01:04:07,829 --> 01:04:08,556
run an ad on it.

1559
01:04:08,559 --> 01:04:11,498
but because Adam Smith has a
federal election ID number,

1560
01:04:11,498 --> 01:04:13,998
he's one of the only
people in the state that

1561
01:04:13,998 --> 01:04:15,179
could run an ad on it.

1562
01:04:15,179 --> 01:04:18,579
And do you think it might help
us to actually allow, you know,

1563
01:04:18,579 --> 01:04:20,518
people that have political
speech to run ads?

1564
01:04:20,518 --> 01:04:22,277
You're talking about
online social media?

1565
01:04:22,277 --> 01:04:25,018
Online meta, meta
specifically, or Google Ads.

1566
01:04:25,018 --> 01:04:26,978
All right, I'm going to
repeat the question.

1567
01:04:26,978 --> 01:04:30,538
So question one was, will the
Seattle Times drop the ad wall?

1568
01:04:32,099 --> 01:04:37,869
The question two was, I guess,
what's the role between local,

1569
01:04:37,869 --> 01:04:41,483
state folks putting their
opinion out there, being

1570
01:04:41,483 --> 01:04:43,568
able to advertise, versus
federal candidates

1571
01:04:43,568 --> 01:04:46,199
being able to advertise
on Meta and Google Ads?

1572
01:04:46,199 --> 01:04:48,666
All the forums are empty,
because if we really wanted

1573
01:04:48,666 --> 01:04:51,492
to screw people that threw
events, we wouldn't let them

1574
01:04:51,492 --> 01:04:52,818
run ads on social media.

1575
01:04:53,858 --> 01:04:57,831
Well, as far as the
paywall goes, readers

1576
01:04:57,831 --> 01:04:59,818
ask about that a lot.

1577
01:04:59,818 --> 01:05:02,338
You're far from the first
person to bring that up.

1578
01:05:02,338 --> 01:05:04,199
And it's a good question.

1579
01:05:04,199 --> 01:05:06,539
They are a public
service, essentially.

1580
01:05:06,539 --> 01:05:09,181
We're trying to inform the
populace to do this great

1581
01:05:09,181 --> 01:05:11,458
free thing, this great
right we have to vote.

1582
01:05:12,639 --> 01:05:15,838
And we have that discussion
in the newsroom.

1583
01:05:15,838 --> 01:05:19,672
The consensus now is
that these are very time

1584
01:05:19,672 --> 01:05:21,538
and labor intensive.

1585
01:05:21,539 --> 01:05:25,072
It is content that you don't
get anywhere else, and

1586
01:05:25,072 --> 01:05:29,472
therefore it's very valuable,
and we think that folks

1587
01:05:29,472 --> 01:05:34,132
should pay for it because
of the time and care and

1588
01:05:34,132 --> 01:05:36,579
expertise that it takes.

1589
01:05:36,579 --> 01:05:38,059
I don't know how
I feel about it.

1590
01:05:39,639 --> 01:05:42,164
Competing with the
Times, I'm glad that the

1591
01:05:42,164 --> 01:05:43,358
Times has a pay wall.

1592
01:05:44,579 --> 01:05:46,358
I was helping out.

1593
01:05:47,998 --> 01:05:51,967
I was obsessed with trying
to, with the numbers

1594
01:05:51,967 --> 01:05:55,306
of our endorsements, how
many people looked at

1595
01:05:55,306 --> 01:05:58,297
it, where they looked at it,
throwing it on the front

1596
01:05:58,297 --> 01:06:01,239
cover, throwing it on boxes,
putting it as an insert.

1597
01:06:01,239 --> 01:06:03,239
We did so much stuff, and I
don't even know why we did it.

1598
01:06:03,239 --> 01:06:04,219
There's no money in it.

1599
01:06:04,219 --> 01:06:09,139
But I loved having
the endorsement.

1600
01:06:09,139 --> 01:06:11,666
We really pushed on endorsements
and the cheat sheet and

1601
01:06:11,666 --> 01:06:13,980
tried to take as much friction
out of it as possible,

1602
01:06:13,980 --> 01:06:17,679
made it as easy as possible,
made it fun to read.

1603
01:06:17,679 --> 01:06:21,192
And because of that, we
definitely punched higher

1604
01:06:21,192 --> 01:06:23,199
above our weight than we did.

1605
01:06:23,199 --> 01:06:28,119
And I think the Times does
a disservice to itself.

1606
01:06:28,119 --> 01:06:30,199
I think, yes, it's
a lot of work.

1607
01:06:30,199 --> 01:06:30,898
It's incredible.

1608
01:06:30,898 --> 01:06:33,179
but I think you guys
should make it free.

1609
01:06:33,179 --> 01:06:34,938
It'd make more people read it.

1610
01:06:34,938 --> 01:06:37,898
Well, again, there are,
it's so wishy-washy,

1611
01:06:37,898 --> 01:06:39,739
there are good arguments
on both sides.

1612
01:06:39,739 --> 01:06:43,293
On the other hand,
but no, I know the

1613
01:06:43,293 --> 01:06:46,239
work that goes into it,
but I also wish that,

1614
01:06:46,239 --> 01:06:48,797
I also would like lots
more people to read it

1615
01:06:48,797 --> 01:06:49,559
because there are
a lot of people

1616
01:06:49,559 --> 01:06:51,918
who are not getting
enough information

1617
01:06:51,918 --> 01:06:53,938
to make good decisions
while they're voting.

1618
01:06:53,938 --> 01:06:56,730
And it's funny work too
because people that are

1619
01:06:56,730 --> 01:06:58,719
running for office are whack.

1620
01:06:58,719 --> 01:07:00,277
That could be a whole other.

1621
01:07:00,277 --> 01:07:04,918
Yeah, that's why you guys
should put a camera in there.

1622
01:07:04,918 --> 01:07:05,878
Because they're nuts.

1623
01:07:05,878 --> 01:07:07,759
Well, Supreme Court, we did.

1624
01:07:07,759 --> 01:07:08,739
Oh, did you?

1625
01:07:08,739 --> 01:07:10,018
We did, yes.

1626
01:07:10,018 --> 01:07:10,878
Oh, I'd love to see that.

1627
01:07:10,878 --> 01:07:14,297
All five Supreme Court
races, we had folks in.

1628
01:07:15,378 --> 01:07:18,978
TVW, sorry, Seattle Channel,
TVW came in and filmed it.

1629
01:07:18,978 --> 01:07:20,858
They're on our website,
which is fun to pay well.

1630
01:07:22,378 --> 01:07:23,818
You don't talk to all
candidates, do you?

1631
01:07:24,838 --> 01:07:26,679
Like, good space guy
doesn't get an interview.

1632
01:07:26,679 --> 01:07:27,413
No. Sorry.

1633
01:07:27,413 --> 01:07:29,451
That may be anti-democratic.

1634
01:07:29,451 --> 01:07:32,059
No. There are people
and people who run

1635
01:07:32,059 --> 01:07:35,811
over and over and over and
don't seem to be serious about

1636
01:07:35,811 --> 01:07:37,442
a particular position.

1637
01:07:37,442 --> 01:07:39,480
We vet some of those folks out.

1638
01:07:41,259 --> 01:07:42,833
Do you use endorsements?

1639
01:07:42,833 --> 01:07:45,458
You know everything
that's going on, but.

1640
01:07:45,458 --> 01:07:46,338
You mean myself?

1641
01:07:46,338 --> 01:07:47,579
As a voter.

1642
01:07:47,579 --> 01:07:50,639
Oh, the Times suggests this.

1643
01:07:50,639 --> 01:07:52,277
I definitely look
at endorsements,

1644
01:07:52,277 --> 01:07:53,818
especially for
down-ballot races.

1645
01:07:53,818 --> 01:07:54,518
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1646
01:07:55,539 --> 01:07:57,978
But we don't have endorsements.

1647
01:07:57,978 --> 01:07:59,918
For school board, who
would you trust more?

1648
01:07:59,918 --> 01:08:02,518
The stranger whose nobody's
ever had a kid once?

1649
01:08:03,739 --> 01:08:05,759
Or the Seattle Times?

1650
01:08:05,759 --> 01:08:06,858
Just answer the question.

1651
01:08:06,858 --> 01:08:08,577
Well, I'm just going to
tell you that somebody who

1652
01:08:08,577 --> 01:08:10,436
was at the stranger
who was in charge of

1653
01:08:10,436 --> 01:08:13,072
school board endorsements
told Sandeep and I

1654
01:08:13,072 --> 01:08:15,898
that she had no idea what
she was talking about.

1655
01:08:15,898 --> 01:08:17,078
So, you know.

1656
01:08:18,399 --> 01:08:20,779
Another successful newspaper.

1657
01:08:20,779 --> 01:08:26,216
But no, we invite many,
many folks to come in.

1658
01:08:26,219 --> 01:08:30,719
This year we had 20 candidates
either turned us down or

1659
01:08:30,719 --> 01:08:33,997
stood us up when they
said they would come.

1660
01:08:33,997 --> 01:08:34,997
So there you are.

1661
01:08:34,997 --> 01:08:36,198
We invite.

1662
01:08:36,198 --> 01:08:37,479
You come or don't come.

1663
01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:39,868
I think the second part of
that question we can touch on

1664
01:08:39,868 --> 01:08:41,853
quickly is just, it's a
little bit more open.

1665
01:08:41,853 --> 01:08:43,979
What are your thoughts
about Washington being

1666
01:08:43,979 --> 01:08:46,899
a unique state in the sense
that we prohibit local

1667
01:08:46,899 --> 01:08:50,337
folks, state candidates
from advertising on

1668
01:08:50,337 --> 01:08:51,425
Meta, Google?

1669
01:08:51,425 --> 01:08:53,451
They can still go on cable.

1670
01:08:53,451 --> 01:08:56,511
It's way too expensive
for most people.

1671
01:08:56,511 --> 01:08:58,738
Or have mail in your mailbox.

1672
01:08:58,738 --> 01:09:01,996
And, Chirag, just to
clarify that so people

1673
01:09:01,996 --> 01:09:05,978
understand this, our
disclosure laws are stricter.

1674
01:09:05,979 --> 01:09:09,368
they require all this stuff
to be disclosed so that Meta

1675
01:09:09,368 --> 01:09:12,541
and Google and a bunch of
the social media platforms

1676
01:09:12,541 --> 01:09:15,671
have said it's their
decision they're not going

1677
01:09:15,671 --> 01:09:18,456
to run political parties
because they don't want to

1678
01:09:18,456 --> 01:09:20,676
go through all the disclosure
stuff that they want.

1679
01:09:20,679 --> 01:09:22,055
Yeah, I'll say that right now.

1680
01:09:22,059 --> 01:09:24,886
So in Washington, our
disclosure laws are way more

1681
01:09:24,886 --> 01:09:26,640
strict than many other states.

1682
01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,269
And Meta, Google, they
specifically have said that

1683
01:09:29,269 --> 01:09:31,957
they don't want to or they
act like they don't want to.

1684
01:09:31,957 --> 01:09:34,938
So it prohibits, they
don't want to disclose.

1685
01:09:34,939 --> 01:09:37,238
So candidates can't
use their platforms.

1686
01:09:37,238 --> 01:09:39,417
Didn't Eli Sanders
write about this at the

1687
01:09:39,417 --> 01:09:40,537
stream way back then?

1688
01:09:40,537 --> 01:09:42,179
He's our new editor, you know.

1689
01:09:42,179 --> 01:09:42,899
The new editor.

1690
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:46,359
He went on a poll on Twitter.

1691
01:09:47,779 --> 01:09:49,676
So maybe look at the article.

1692
01:09:49,679 --> 01:09:53,118
Yeah, let's go to,
yeah, in the blue.

1693
01:09:53,118 --> 01:09:56,917
Okay, my question goes to
developing a news habit.

1694
01:09:56,917 --> 01:09:59,939
So I'm of the camp that says
to have a strong democracy

1695
01:09:59,939 --> 01:10:02,962
we have to have informed
voters, informed citizens,

1696
01:10:02,962 --> 01:10:04,198
and informed voters.

1697
01:10:04,198 --> 01:10:06,750
So that means they have
to develop a news habit

1698
01:10:06,750 --> 01:10:08,158
and want to read the news.

1699
01:10:08,158 --> 01:10:12,140
But my second part of that is
I feel people should realize

1700
01:10:12,140 --> 01:10:16,377
they have to pay for the news
because it isn't provided free.

1701
01:10:17,599 --> 01:10:21,122
Could you guys comment on, A,
developing a news habit and how

1702
01:10:21,122 --> 01:10:24,578
important you think that is with
kids, and B, paying for it?

1703
01:10:24,578 --> 01:10:27,282
And I'll just add that I
run a project at Garfield

1704
01:10:27,282 --> 01:10:28,497
and at West Seattle High.

1705
01:10:28,497 --> 01:10:31,139
We have the kids doing
weekly news quizzes.

1706
01:10:31,139 --> 01:10:35,993
So we're trying to create a
sense of reading the news,

1707
01:10:35,993 --> 01:10:40,961
winning prizes for getting
as many right as possible.

1708
01:10:40,961 --> 01:10:42,938
But it's just a little
piece of the puzzle.

1709
01:10:42,939 --> 01:10:44,537
How do the kids like it?

1710
01:10:44,537 --> 01:10:45,658
The ones who
participate love it.

1711
01:10:46,899 --> 01:10:48,679
I do the New York
Times weekly quiz.

1712
01:10:48,679 --> 01:10:49,859
So maybe that's a good idea
for the Seattle Times.

1713
01:10:49,859 --> 01:10:50,917
I would love to do
that every week.

1714
01:10:50,917 --> 01:10:52,479
We have a news quiz.

1715
01:10:52,479 --> 01:10:54,519
Oh, now I learned
something new today.

1716
01:10:54,519 --> 01:10:55,978
I'm going to repeat
the question.

1717
01:10:55,979 --> 01:10:56,719
I'm a subscriber.

1718
01:10:56,719 --> 01:10:57,417
I'm a subscriber.

1719
01:10:57,417 --> 01:10:58,479
Seattle News Quiz.

1720
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:00,439
It's seattleschoolsnewsquiz.com.

1721
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:01,639
So we got that one.

1722
01:11:01,639 --> 01:11:02,719
Okay, fair enough.

1723
01:11:02,719 --> 01:11:05,377
Well, so the question is, you
know, developing a news diet

1724
01:11:05,377 --> 01:11:07,801
and what can we do to,
you know, help people

1725
01:11:07,801 --> 01:11:08,979
develop a news diet.

1726
01:11:08,979 --> 01:11:11,733
Maybe you guys can also share
where you guys get your news

1727
01:11:11,733 --> 01:11:13,256
from, what's in your news diet.

1728
01:11:15,279 --> 01:11:18,515
I have just something to say
about that, which is when

1729
01:11:18,515 --> 01:11:21,752
we were all kids, right, we
felt like we had to become,

1730
01:11:21,752 --> 01:11:23,296
we had to know something.

1731
01:11:23,296 --> 01:11:25,756
We had to read the news
a bit to become better

1732
01:11:25,756 --> 01:11:26,917
informed citizens.

1733
01:11:26,917 --> 01:11:29,679
And so that's why you kind of
had to read the newspaper.

1734
01:11:29,679 --> 01:11:32,470
I wonder how much without
this program do kids at

1735
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:35,819
Garfield feel like that's
something that they want to do.

1736
01:11:35,819 --> 01:11:39,060
I don't know the answer to it,
but when I see these depressing

1737
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:41,912
statistics that 70% of people
under the age of 29 only

1738
01:11:41,912 --> 01:11:45,220
encounter news inadvertently
as they're scrolling through

1739
01:11:45,220 --> 01:11:48,077
TikTok videos, it doesn't
make me super optimistic.

1740
01:11:48,078 --> 01:11:51,009
And I don't really have
any answers about how you

1741
01:11:51,009 --> 01:11:52,618
help develop news habits.

1742
01:11:52,618 --> 01:11:54,319
That sounds like a great idea.

1743
01:11:54,319 --> 01:11:58,095
The Messenger at Garfield
is an awesome paper.

1744
01:11:58,099 --> 01:12:02,457
And the people who work, the
students who work on that are,

1745
01:12:03,899 --> 01:12:05,783
both my kids went to
Garfield and neither of them

1746
01:12:05,783 --> 01:12:06,819
worked for the newspaper.

1747
01:12:07,939 --> 01:12:09,796
But their friends did.

1748
01:12:09,796 --> 01:12:11,296
Eli Sanders was
the editor, yeah.

1749
01:12:11,296 --> 01:12:13,978
But I talked to those guys
and they're so smart.

1750
01:12:13,979 --> 01:12:16,796
There's so many young people
who are, I'm always like,

1751
01:12:16,796 --> 01:12:18,238
why do you want
to do journalism?

1752
01:12:18,238 --> 01:12:21,359
There's so many young people
who are going to college for it

1753
01:12:21,359 --> 01:12:23,158
and working at the
student newspaper.

1754
01:12:23,158 --> 01:12:26,134
And also working at the
student newspaper is as

1755
01:12:26,134 --> 01:12:27,658
fun a thing as you can do.

1756
01:12:27,658 --> 01:12:31,029
Or working at the college
radio station is also

1757
01:12:31,029 --> 01:12:32,497
like as fun as can be.

1758
01:12:32,497 --> 01:12:34,457
So I read the Time.

1759
01:12:34,457 --> 01:12:37,078
I read the Seattle Times,
the New York Times, the

1760
01:12:37,078 --> 01:12:38,518
New Yorker, the Stranger,

1761
01:12:40,238 --> 01:12:42,319
Atlantic Online.

1762
01:12:42,319 --> 01:12:47,774
And I don't use any of the apps,
and I read a lot of print.

1763
01:12:47,779 --> 01:12:49,497
And it's delicious.

1764
01:12:49,497 --> 01:12:51,676
Like in the morning, you
have a cup of coffee

1765
01:12:51,679 --> 01:12:57,059
and a bunch of newspapers out
and my wife and I don't talk.

1766
01:12:57,059 --> 01:12:59,759
It's just one.

1767
01:12:59,759 --> 01:13:03,176
Ab, did you read that
thing about Jimothy?

1768
01:13:03,179 --> 01:13:05,917
It's so great.

1769
01:13:05,917 --> 01:13:09,858
I don't know why people don't
want to do that all the time.

1770
01:13:09,859 --> 01:13:12,158
The news quiz part is excellent.

1771
01:13:12,158 --> 01:13:15,238
We had that when I was
growing up 100 years ago

1772
01:13:15,238 --> 01:13:18,359
in my middle school
and it was a thing,

1773
01:13:18,359 --> 01:13:19,877
like who could win News Quiz?

1774
01:13:19,877 --> 01:13:24,037
It was extremely competitive
and there was always

1775
01:13:24,037 --> 01:13:26,560
like the same three of us
who were edgy neck and neck

1776
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:27,658
toward the end of the
week, it was so exciting.

1777
01:13:27,658 --> 01:13:29,618
There were no prizes even.

1778
01:13:29,618 --> 01:13:32,319
You know, it was a small town,
so entertainment was littles.

1779
01:13:32,319 --> 01:13:35,837
But that helped do it.

1780
01:13:35,837 --> 01:13:39,139
I read myself, of course,
all the copy at work.

1781
01:13:39,139 --> 01:13:41,796
I also read the New York
Times, I look at local stuff,

1782
01:13:41,796 --> 01:13:44,118
The Stranger, South
Seattle Emerald.

1783
01:13:44,118 --> 01:13:46,059
I like the Capitol Hill blog.

1784
01:13:46,059 --> 01:13:46,859
I love that thing.

1785
01:13:46,859 --> 01:13:48,837
It's super informative.

1786
01:13:48,837 --> 01:13:50,497
I learn things even though
I don't live there.

1787
01:13:50,497 --> 01:13:52,078
I still, I like it.

1788
01:13:52,078 --> 01:13:53,118
The obsessiveness.

1789
01:13:53,118 --> 01:13:54,559
It's so obsessive.

1790
01:13:55,719 --> 01:13:57,018
And I love that aspect.

1791
01:13:57,019 --> 01:13:58,337
Like, he's nuts.

1792
01:13:58,337 --> 01:13:59,055
Is that true?

1793
01:13:59,059 --> 01:14:00,938
He's a nice guy and crazy.

1794
01:14:00,939 --> 01:14:04,639
Like, I don't know how he
is just on everything.

1795
01:14:04,639 --> 01:14:05,837
And it's great.

1796
01:14:05,837 --> 01:14:06,359
It is great.

1797
01:14:06,359 --> 01:14:09,296
I think there should be
a ton more of those.

1798
01:14:09,296 --> 01:14:11,064
I think they're awesome,
but then you have to

1799
01:14:11,064 --> 01:14:12,018
have people to run them.

1800
01:14:12,019 --> 01:14:14,837
I think you just have
to start them early.

1801
01:14:14,837 --> 01:14:17,417
My household, we had
three newspapers.

1802
01:14:17,417 --> 01:14:18,399
My parents subscribed.

1803
01:14:18,399 --> 01:14:22,488
There were three in the area to
have then, which was awesome,

1804
01:14:22,488 --> 01:14:24,537
which most people don't have.

1805
01:14:24,537 --> 01:14:26,837
So there was
newspapers in my home.

1806
01:14:26,837 --> 01:14:29,979
My dad was a history teacher
briefly, so there were

1807
01:14:29,979 --> 01:14:31,779
American History Magazine.

1808
01:14:31,779 --> 01:14:33,912
There's always were books
and periodicals and

1809
01:14:33,912 --> 01:14:36,193
things and I think the
more you can offer that to

1810
01:14:36,193 --> 01:14:38,658
kids the more interested
they will be as well as a

1811
01:14:38,658 --> 01:14:41,604
competitive spirit like if
you can beat the pants off

1812
01:14:41,604 --> 01:14:45,051
the kid in the next desk
because you know what data

1813
01:14:45,051 --> 01:14:48,895
center in Russia just got
bombed yes bring that

1814
01:14:48,899 --> 01:14:51,412
out bring that out that will
help that will help bring

1815
01:14:51,412 --> 01:14:54,011
an appreciation I think
that's awesome that you do

1816
01:14:54,011 --> 01:14:56,917
that and I do get awesome
op-eds from high school kids

1817
01:14:56,917 --> 01:14:57,658
So they're out there.

1818
01:14:57,658 --> 01:14:59,296
They're interested in the
news, and they want to

1819
01:14:59,296 --> 01:15:00,238
write, which is excellent.

1820
01:15:02,457 --> 01:15:04,497
I think there's this one,
and then we'll go to Kenan.

1821
01:15:04,497 --> 01:15:04,899
Yeah, go for it.

1822
01:15:05,997 --> 01:15:10,448
So one of the things that
you- there's a lot of

1823
01:15:10,448 --> 01:15:14,274
independent media online,
and I'm using meaning

1824
01:15:14,274 --> 01:15:17,438
quotation marks, independent
journalists in quotation marks,

1825
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:19,207
because the most of what
you see out there is

1826
01:15:19,207 --> 01:15:20,139
not really reporting.

1827
01:15:20,139 --> 01:15:21,279
It's opinion.

1828
01:15:21,279 --> 01:15:21,979
There's tons of it.

1829
01:15:21,979 --> 01:15:23,439
You go on Substack,
it's just flooded.

1830
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:24,837
And a lot of it's really good.

1831
01:15:24,837 --> 01:15:26,319
A lot of it is garbage.

1832
01:15:26,319 --> 01:15:27,099
A lot of it is good.

1833
01:15:28,377 --> 01:15:32,149
It's the easiest thing
to get from independent

1834
01:15:32,149 --> 01:15:33,698
people is op-eds.

1835
01:15:33,698 --> 01:15:37,296
So I guess my question would be,
why have an op-eds section?

1836
01:15:38,399 --> 01:15:39,796
And why put it behind a paywall?

1837
01:15:39,796 --> 01:15:44,229
I can get opinions from a dozen
independent people in Seattle

1838
01:15:44,229 --> 01:15:46,055
on all a myriad of issues.

1839
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:49,837
Why not spend that money
on the odds cover tickets?

1840
01:15:50,979 --> 01:15:52,599
So the question was,
in our current state,

1841
01:15:52,599 --> 01:15:55,720
where there's an abundance
of opinions on the Internet,

1842
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,877
everyone's got an opinion, why
does the Seattle Times continue?

1843
01:15:58,877 --> 01:16:01,019
Why should the Seattle
Times have one?

1844
01:16:02,099 --> 01:16:04,939
You've got to do it in a
Goodwill hunting accent.

1845
01:16:07,819 --> 01:16:12,158
Well, you can't get op-eds
like I publish anywhere else.

1846
01:16:13,939 --> 01:16:14,760
Sometimes that's good

1847
01:16:16,957 --> 01:16:18,358
couple days there
where maybe yeah

1848
01:16:19,359 --> 01:16:23,118
our op-eds are from local
people I don't accept them from

1849
01:16:23,118 --> 01:16:23,917
folks outside our

1850
01:16:25,139 --> 01:16:28,243
general region which I
think goes from Oregon up

1851
01:16:28,243 --> 01:16:31,037
to British Columbia and I
sometimes let some Idaho

1852
01:16:31,037 --> 01:16:32,078
in if I'm feeling good but

1853
01:16:33,399 --> 01:16:35,300
these are people these
are your neighbors

1854
01:16:35,300 --> 01:16:36,877
these are your fellow
readers you're not

1855
01:16:36,877 --> 01:16:38,698
going to get that on I mean
you might get that on a

1856
01:16:38,698 --> 01:16:41,559
a sub stack, but it's not going
to be professionally edited and

1857
01:16:41,559 --> 01:16:42,877
it might not be fact checked.

1858
01:16:42,877 --> 01:16:47,725
So you're getting something that
isn't AI, that's local, that's

1859
01:16:47,725 --> 01:16:50,734
thoughts from folks
you know around you.

1860
01:16:50,734 --> 01:16:53,136
And I think that
is something that

1861
01:16:53,136 --> 01:16:55,194
you can't get anywhere else.

1862
01:16:55,194 --> 01:16:57,779
And I do ask people to
write about things that

1863
01:16:57,779 --> 01:16:59,260
folks regionally care about.

1864
01:16:59,260 --> 01:17:03,877
Salmon, Boeing, business
tax, I mean the B&O tax,

1865
01:17:03,877 --> 01:17:06,078
my gosh, hold the gates back.

1866
01:17:07,819 --> 01:17:10,078
Juvenile justice, I mean
these are all things

1867
01:17:10,078 --> 01:17:12,457
that people really, really
care about in our region

1868
01:17:12,457 --> 01:17:14,899
and I try and give that,
different perspectives on that

1869
01:17:14,899 --> 01:17:17,296
to people, I don't
think you can get that

1870
01:17:17,296 --> 01:17:21,176
on some random sub stack
from a guy in New Jersey

1871
01:17:21,179 --> 01:17:21,899
or whatever.

1872
01:17:23,796 --> 01:17:25,783
So that's why I think you
should read them and why

1873
01:17:25,783 --> 01:17:26,778
you should pay for them.

1874
01:17:26,779 --> 01:17:30,837
And that's why we have
that option in our paper.

1875
01:17:30,837 --> 01:17:31,359
Fair enough.

1876
01:17:32,698 --> 01:17:36,609
I have a question about
your impact, especially

1877
01:17:36,609 --> 01:17:38,078
to Seattle Times.

1878
01:17:38,078 --> 01:17:41,439
I spent my career
in television news.

1879
01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:46,051
And the dirty secret about
TV news, we have four local

1880
01:17:46,051 --> 01:17:48,359
stations with hours of it.

1881
01:17:48,359 --> 01:17:51,877
Their assignment cheat
sheet is you guys.

1882
01:17:52,899 --> 01:18:01,318
So your impact actually carries
over in that arena, or does it?

1883
01:18:01,319 --> 01:18:03,037
Tell me what you all think.

1884
01:18:03,037 --> 01:18:07,662
The question is, TV reporters,
broadcasters, local news

1885
01:18:07,662 --> 01:18:11,448
follows the Seattle Times,
and maybe The Stranger,

1886
01:18:11,448 --> 01:18:13,877
for advice on what
stories are worth,

1887
01:18:13,877 --> 01:18:18,457
what to add on to the evening
news or the morning news.

1888
01:18:18,457 --> 01:18:21,537
When I worked in a much,
much smaller market,

1889
01:18:21,537 --> 01:18:24,457
that was always the joke,
because they just ripped

1890
01:18:24,457 --> 01:18:25,658
one page off and read it.

1891
01:18:25,658 --> 01:18:28,818
I wasn't aware of
that in this market,

1892
01:18:28,819 --> 01:18:31,617
and now that they're all
owned by what, Sinclair or,

1893
01:18:31,617 --> 01:18:32,917
you know, what have you.

1894
01:18:32,917 --> 01:18:34,417
Do you watch the local news?

1895
01:18:34,417 --> 01:18:35,738
No, I don't.

1896
01:18:35,738 --> 01:18:36,819
Very rarely.

1897
01:18:36,819 --> 01:18:39,457
You share it because you
tell me much of your

1898
01:18:39,457 --> 01:18:40,779
reporting is actual.

1899
01:18:40,779 --> 01:18:42,939
- May just as well
that I don't then.

1900
01:18:42,939 --> 01:18:48,796
- I'm just curious if
you don't think that's

1901
01:18:48,796 --> 01:18:52,175
a magnifier of your--
- Well, I guess

1902
01:18:52,175 --> 01:18:54,296
it's complimentary.

1903
01:18:54,296 --> 01:18:55,279
I guess.

1904
01:18:55,279 --> 01:18:56,158
It's lazy.

1905
01:18:56,158 --> 01:18:58,917
I mean, do your own
reporting, friends.

1906
01:19:00,059 --> 01:19:01,319
I don't know.

1907
01:19:01,319 --> 01:19:04,760
I'm sorry, I don't think
about local TV, really.

1908
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:07,309
- How many people it reaches,
but you care about it.

1909
01:19:07,309 --> 01:19:10,796
- All, other than TVW you
and the Seattle channel.

1910
01:19:10,796 --> 01:19:12,018
Now you're being in the lead.

1911
01:19:13,738 --> 01:19:19,104
I think that the Seattle Times
has surprisingly larger than

1912
01:19:19,104 --> 01:19:23,353
you think impact on the whole
downstream of how people get

1913
01:19:23,353 --> 01:19:26,559
articles and what people talk
about, and they've never

1914
01:19:26,559 --> 01:19:27,939
read the publication.

1915
01:19:27,939 --> 01:19:31,109
And I think that as far as, you
know, impact is one of those

1916
01:19:31,109 --> 01:19:33,000
things that's important, right?

1917
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:33,559
Oh, sure.

1918
01:19:33,559 --> 01:19:37,104
And I think that the Seattle
Times has way more impact

1919
01:19:37,104 --> 01:19:40,568
than any, you know, any,
like, you know, like Google

1920
01:19:40,568 --> 01:19:42,341
Analytics would tell you.

1921
01:19:42,341 --> 01:19:43,037
Gosh, I hope so.

1922
01:19:43,037 --> 01:19:45,484
Well, I mean, if people
are sharing it, like, hey,

1923
01:19:45,484 --> 01:19:46,676
I read this great thing.

1924
01:19:46,679 --> 01:19:47,198
Here it is.

1925
01:19:47,198 --> 01:19:49,064
Or, hey, I saw this
thing, you know, a link

1926
01:19:49,064 --> 01:19:50,216
on LinkedIn or whatever.

1927
01:19:50,219 --> 01:19:53,983
You know, and I guess from
TV, if they credit us, I

1928
01:19:53,983 --> 01:19:57,533
hope they do, then we're-
Okay, well, then therein

1929
01:19:57,533 --> 01:19:58,658
lies the problem.

1930
01:19:58,658 --> 01:19:59,858
I don't consider that impact.

1931
01:20:01,279 --> 01:20:04,957
Well, that's great, but I wish
they'd put our name on it.

1932
01:20:04,957 --> 01:20:05,957
Fair enough.

1933
01:20:05,957 --> 01:20:07,198
Oh, yeah, one more question.

1934
01:20:07,198 --> 01:20:09,139
I think we have time
for one, maybe two.

1935
01:20:09,139 --> 01:20:09,519
Yeah, go for it.

1936
01:20:10,939 --> 01:20:14,756
So when I started in journalism
25, 30 years ago, right,

1937
01:20:17,296 --> 01:20:20,037
following on what you all
were just talking about,

1938
01:20:20,037 --> 01:20:21,457
newspapers were
still king, right?

1939
01:20:21,457 --> 01:20:23,826
I'm sitting next to a
former manager at Seattle

1940
01:20:23,826 --> 01:20:24,979
Times, Dave Boardman,

1941
01:20:27,439 --> 01:20:31,551
He had, I mean, that guy,
great journalist, but he was

1942
01:20:31,551 --> 01:20:36,037
like, newspapers, we are the
kings of journalism, right?

1943
01:20:36,037 --> 01:20:41,627
He had a big frickin' ego
about how much juice they

1944
01:20:41,627 --> 01:20:44,898
had over journalism, right?

1945
01:20:44,899 --> 01:20:47,377
And everybody follows us.

1946
01:20:47,377 --> 01:20:50,626
We are the core of the
journalistic, you know,

1947
01:20:50,626 --> 01:20:52,420
he has his own rap, right?

1948
01:20:53,658 --> 01:20:55,578
He's off teaching
journalism now.

1949
01:20:56,796 --> 01:21:00,658
And I wonder now if
it hasn't flipped.

1950
01:21:00,658 --> 01:21:03,988
And you guys are like,
the legacy media is the

1951
01:21:03,988 --> 01:21:05,880
back of the house, right?

1952
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:09,904
You're the busboys and
the cleaning the tables

1953
01:21:09,904 --> 01:21:14,252
and stuff like that because
front and center now,

1954
01:21:14,252 --> 01:21:18,859
it's what's on social media,
it's what's on Substack,

1955
01:21:18,859 --> 01:21:20,877
it's what's on podcasts.

1956
01:21:20,877 --> 01:21:25,457
So, I mean, I do wonder
if the power dynamics

1957
01:21:25,457 --> 01:21:30,099
of how information and how the
kind of media ecosystem works.

1958
01:21:31,179 --> 01:21:32,837
- Okay, the question--
- I disagree.

1959
01:21:32,837 --> 01:21:33,676
- I'll be really quick.

1960
01:21:33,679 --> 01:21:36,337
The question is, you know,
the changing power dynamics

1961
01:21:36,337 --> 01:21:39,555
between legacy media, you know,
that used to be the kingmaker,

1962
01:21:39,555 --> 01:21:41,676
they probably reveled
in being the kingmaker,

1963
01:21:41,679 --> 01:21:44,877
and now they're maybe
fighting to stay relevant.

1964
01:21:44,877 --> 01:21:46,599
That's a good version
of that question.

1965
01:21:46,599 --> 01:21:48,578
Yeah, why don't you?

1966
01:21:48,578 --> 01:21:50,078
Oh, no, no, you
were going to go.

1967
01:21:50,078 --> 01:21:50,859
I'm right over here.

1968
01:21:51,877 --> 01:21:54,796
Yeah, I think there's no
brand associated with all

1969
01:21:54,796 --> 01:21:56,259
that other stuff, right?

1970
01:21:57,259 --> 01:22:00,185
And so obviously history
doesn't matter too much if

1971
01:22:00,185 --> 01:22:03,219
nobody cares about
history, but it does have

1972
01:22:03,219 --> 01:22:05,158
this lasting impact.

1973
01:22:05,158 --> 01:22:07,078
You Google something
with Seattle Times,

1974
01:22:07,078 --> 01:22:09,759
an article about me,
if you Google me,

1975
01:22:09,759 --> 01:22:11,636
that's the, for
better or for worse,

1976
01:22:11,639 --> 01:22:13,399
that's the first
thing that comes up.

1977
01:22:13,399 --> 01:22:16,978
And I think that
still people think,

1978
01:22:16,979 --> 01:22:19,417
oh, even if they don't read it,
like, oh, there was something

1979
01:22:19,417 --> 01:22:21,399
in the New York
Times about that.

1980
01:22:21,399 --> 01:22:24,296
That's a pretty decent
version of the truth.

1981
01:22:24,296 --> 01:22:28,259
And I think if I heard it
on the Joe Rogan show,

1982
01:22:28,259 --> 01:22:30,719
even though that has a
much bigger audience,

1983
01:22:30,719 --> 01:22:34,796
you're like, it doesn't
carry any value past,

1984
01:22:34,796 --> 01:22:38,198
there's the sell, it's only
as good for two seconds

1985
01:22:38,198 --> 01:22:39,398
after it leaves his mouth.

1986
01:22:39,399 --> 01:22:41,979
After that, it doesn't
affect people,

1987
01:22:41,979 --> 01:22:44,417
but over time, I
think it dissipates

1988
01:22:44,417 --> 01:22:47,779
where probably the Seattle Times is gonna be around

1989
01:22:47,779 --> 01:22:52,796
and that they are gonna have
an important version of truth

1990
01:22:52,796 --> 01:22:54,363
that's lasting.

1991
01:22:54,363 --> 01:22:57,600
And I think that
brings you a little

1992
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,055
bit more to the forefront.

1993
01:23:00,059 --> 01:23:02,087
I was gonna say it sounds
like they're doing all

1994
01:23:02,087 --> 01:23:03,957
the work we heard
from our broadcast.

1995
01:23:03,957 --> 01:23:06,604
But I mean it's a
different question than

1996
01:23:06,604 --> 01:23:09,917
Sandeep's question which is
about impact and influence.

1997
01:23:09,917 --> 01:23:12,256
And I do think, I mean I
don't know if the tables

1998
01:23:12,259 --> 01:23:14,087
have flipped, but I do think
it's a different world

1999
01:23:14,087 --> 01:23:16,792
now that we're living in and
clearly where most people

2000
01:23:16,792 --> 01:23:20,020
right now are getting their
media from social media.

2001
01:23:20,020 --> 01:23:22,671
Some of it's from, I mean,
there's all these social media

2002
01:23:22,671 --> 01:23:25,743
influencers that are doing news
who have zero background in

2003
01:23:25,743 --> 01:23:28,627
journalism that are relying
on the Seattle Times to

2004
01:23:28,627 --> 01:23:30,037
do those stories, right?

2005
01:23:30,037 --> 01:23:32,421
But they are clearly
having a huge influence,

2006
01:23:32,421 --> 01:23:33,679
if that's the question.

2007
01:23:33,679 --> 01:23:36,823
Yeah, and there was just a
moment, a brief moment of

2008
01:23:36,823 --> 01:23:38,618
time that Boardman, Boardman?

2009
01:23:38,618 --> 01:23:39,037
David Boardman.

2010
01:23:39,037 --> 01:23:41,158
David Boardman, that he was right.

2011
01:23:41,158 --> 01:23:42,978
You know, my mom
gave me this book

2012
01:23:42,979 --> 01:23:46,960
of the 1923 list of
newspapers in America.

2013
01:23:46,960 --> 01:23:48,158
And it's this big.

2014
01:23:48,158 --> 01:23:50,639
And newspapers used to have
that in their offices.

2015
01:23:50,639 --> 01:23:52,380
And you'd be like,
oh, who's the,

2016
01:23:52,380 --> 01:23:55,478
who's the, how do I connect
the person in St. Louis?

2017
01:23:55,479 --> 01:23:58,051
And then you go to St.
Louis and it's just like

2018
01:23:58,051 --> 01:24:01,033
the Ukrainian daily, you
know, like in Chicago

2019
01:24:01,033 --> 01:24:04,859
where I'm from originally,
I looked at the, in 1923,

2020
01:24:04,859 --> 01:24:10,259
and there was like 80 newspapers
and like 30 of them were dailies

2021
01:24:10,259 --> 01:24:12,019
and tons of different languages.

2022
01:24:12,019 --> 01:24:15,296
There's this huge,
even in Seattle,

2023
01:24:15,296 --> 01:24:18,604
there used to be the
Times, the PI, the

2024
01:24:18,604 --> 01:24:22,296
Stranger, the Rocket,
the Seattle Weekly.

2025
01:24:22,296 --> 01:24:23,779
There's a ton.

2026
01:24:23,779 --> 01:24:28,497
And so there is fewer.

2027
01:24:28,497 --> 01:24:30,778
It might not punch as hard.

2028
01:24:30,779 --> 01:24:35,087
Each one might be not as strong
as they were before, but there's

2029
01:24:35,087 --> 01:24:36,104
fewer of them.

2030
01:24:36,104 --> 01:24:39,238
And that moment in time
in like the 70s and 80s

2031
01:24:39,238 --> 01:24:41,907
when newspapers were so
incredibly powerful,

2032
01:24:41,907 --> 01:24:44,438
they just were making
money on so much stuff.

2033
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:46,367
Those days are over, right?

2034
01:24:46,367 --> 01:24:48,796
And so it was a brief
moment in time.

2035
01:24:48,796 --> 01:24:49,809
Well, it was.

2036
01:24:49,809 --> 01:24:52,198
And back to Dave Boardman, who I

2037
01:24:52,198 --> 01:24:55,599
had a lot of respect for
when I worked for him.

2038
01:24:56,939 --> 01:24:59,935
You know how when somebody's
going to, people always

2039
01:24:59,935 --> 01:25:02,729
joke about brain surgeons
are always so cocky and

2040
01:25:02,729 --> 01:25:04,296
assertive and aggressive.

2041
01:25:04,296 --> 01:25:06,810
And you think, well, if
you're going to drill into

2042
01:25:06,810 --> 01:25:09,198
my head, I really want
you to be overconfident.

2043
01:25:09,198 --> 01:25:11,761
If you're going to run
a big newsroom, I want

2044
01:25:11,761 --> 01:25:13,260
you to be overconfident.

2045
01:25:13,260 --> 01:25:16,801
I want you to make a decision,
and I want you to, A, respect

2046
01:25:16,801 --> 01:25:20,113
the people you work for enough
to make a good product.

2047
01:25:20,118 --> 01:25:22,318
So for that, that's my point.

2048
01:25:22,319 --> 01:25:23,938
Jim Simon, you can go tell him.

2049
01:25:23,939 --> 01:25:25,738
You can tell him I said that.

2050
01:25:25,738 --> 01:25:29,078
But, no, that's what you want
running your newsroom, I think.

2051
01:25:29,078 --> 01:25:32,479
Not a Bigfoot per se, but
somebody who is confident

2052
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:35,796
that I'm going to make
this product really great.

2053
01:25:35,796 --> 01:25:39,157
Because if your boss doesn't
believe in you, why should you?

2054
01:25:39,158 --> 01:25:40,618
It's, you know, there.

2055
01:25:40,618 --> 01:25:43,920
But, yes, there were many,
many, many more newspapers

2056
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:45,238
that have sadly gone.

2057
01:25:45,238 --> 01:25:47,438
I'm sad the PI isn't
with us anymore.

2058
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:48,398
I liked that paper.

2059
01:25:48,399 --> 01:25:51,372
When we moved here, I was
happy to get the Times

2060
01:25:51,372 --> 01:25:53,756
where I worked and the PI
because it gave me two

2061
01:25:53,756 --> 01:25:55,618
different lenses on the
city, and I learned a lot.

2062
01:25:55,618 --> 01:25:58,099
And that's how people
learned about their cities.

2063
01:25:58,099 --> 01:26:00,774
The Strangers endorsements
would never be as big as they

2064
01:26:00,774 --> 01:26:03,711
are if the PI was still around
because they were the left

2065
01:26:03,711 --> 01:26:06,636
voice to the more centrist
right, Seattle Times.

2066
01:26:06,636 --> 01:26:10,033
and full of great folks,
and I wish we could

2067
01:26:10,033 --> 01:26:12,399
have absorbed them
all in our newsroom.

2068
01:26:12,399 --> 01:26:16,917
The closing, that party, the
closing Seattle PI party,

2069
01:26:16,917 --> 01:26:19,877
that was one of the saddest
things I've ever been to.

2070
01:26:19,877 --> 01:26:24,318
You just got this sense of
how many people who made ads,

2071
01:26:24,319 --> 01:26:27,412
who drew artists, photographers,
like all of these people,

2072
01:26:27,412 --> 01:26:29,460
every neighborhood had
a couple of people

2073
01:26:29,460 --> 01:26:31,716
who worked at the PI
in that neighborhood,

2074
01:26:31,719 --> 01:26:34,359
and these people who had
kind of middle class,

2075
01:26:34,359 --> 01:26:38,193
They were made pretty decent
money, and their job was

2076
01:26:38,193 --> 01:26:40,197
to be connected to the city.

2077
01:26:40,198 --> 01:26:44,127
And I just think even beyond the
paper, just having employees

2078
01:26:44,127 --> 01:26:48,135
of people whose job is to really
care about their communities,

2079
01:26:48,135 --> 01:26:49,599
those people are gone.

2080
01:26:49,599 --> 01:26:50,560
All of those people are gone.

2081
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:54,060
The amount of people who make
a living doing this stuff is

2082
01:26:54,060 --> 01:26:57,636
vanishingly small, and I think
it hurts the city as a whole

2083
01:26:57,636 --> 01:26:59,497
just on a neighborhood level.

2084
01:26:59,497 --> 01:27:02,880
Well, it does, and it
contributes to a loss of

2085
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:05,438
vitality, diversity of opinion.

2086
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:07,368
Just having, yeah, folks
in your neighborhood

2087
01:27:07,368 --> 01:27:08,358
who work at a newspaper.

2088
01:27:08,359 --> 01:27:11,796
Two newspapers I've
worked for are now dead.

2089
01:27:11,796 --> 01:27:15,001
Everything that we did
there is now nothing in

2090
01:27:15,001 --> 01:27:18,421
fact the the jerk who bought
one of the newspapers I

2091
01:27:18,421 --> 01:27:21,859
worked at stole the Pulitzer
medal and has never been

2092
01:27:21,859 --> 01:27:27,300
found so Roseburg News
Review and the Mail Tribune

2093
01:27:27,300 --> 01:27:31,234
in Medford both extinct
all the work we did there

2094
01:27:31,234 --> 01:27:33,479
nothing I don't know if
the people who live there

2095
01:27:33,479 --> 01:27:36,296
anymore even remember it.

2096
01:27:36,296 --> 01:27:39,461
But it's, yeah, every time a
paper closes, and that happens

2097
01:27:39,461 --> 01:27:42,319
every week now in this country,
we all lose something.

2098
01:27:42,319 --> 01:27:45,886
But Tim, you started a punk rock
upstart that was taking on the

2099
01:27:45,886 --> 01:27:49,259
Seattle Times, or the
Seattle Weekly for sure.

2100
01:27:49,259 --> 01:27:52,939
And you wanted to disrupt
the media ecosystem and have

2101
01:27:52,939 --> 01:27:54,658
the stranger win, right?

2102
01:27:54,658 --> 01:27:56,599
I mean, that was the ethos.

2103
01:27:56,599 --> 01:27:58,877
And you didn't love the
mainstream media gatekeepers.

2104
01:27:58,877 --> 01:28:01,484
You didn't love the David
Boardmans controlling the

2105
01:28:01,484 --> 01:28:02,759
world back then, did you?

2106
01:28:02,759 --> 01:28:04,136
Or I wanted to be them.

2107
01:28:07,359 --> 01:28:08,599
No, yeah, yeah, totally.

2108
01:28:08,599 --> 01:28:10,359
And also, like, I just
wanted to survive.

2109
01:28:10,359 --> 01:28:11,337
You know, I didn't have an idea.

2110
01:28:11,337 --> 01:28:12,519
I dropped out of college.

2111
01:28:12,519 --> 01:28:14,118
I was just like, oh,
I'll just do this.

2112
01:28:14,118 --> 01:28:18,337
You know, and, yeah.

2113
01:28:18,337 --> 01:28:18,979
So, yeah.

2114
01:28:18,979 --> 01:28:21,960
But I didn't want to, like, I'm
not, you can't pin this on me.

2115
01:28:24,759 --> 01:28:27,139
That's what I'm trying to say.

2116
01:28:27,139 --> 01:28:28,578
Well, that's a much somber tone.

2117
01:28:28,578 --> 01:28:30,658
I think let's give them
a big round of applause.

2118
01:28:30,658 --> 01:28:31,898
Thank you so much
for joining us.